Home » The Treasure Chest » Lebanon » Explosions in Lebanon
| Re: Explosions in Lebanon [message #60359 is a reply to message #60358 ] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 20:10   |
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Walid, why do you think only Shuli understood that? I have no great love for Nasrallah, but I understand his relative merit as opposed to someone else more extreme. I also understand that if anyone makes our lives hell, we are not going to be the only ones in that situation, so it would be better if he stayed in place.
Bracha
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| Re: Explosions in Lebanon [message #60360 is a reply to message #60358 ] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 20:10 |
 plsdeleteaccount 
Messages: 3504
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| Walid wrote on Tue, 15 January 2008 21:49 |
Ashraf, last year when the Jewish members were complaining about Nasrallah, I told them that they should light a candle that nothing happens to him because what would follow Nasrallah would turn their lives into real nightmares and that now, Nasrallah is the only one holding it all together and relatively peaceful. I think only Shuli understood what I was talking about back then because they hated Nasrallah so much, they couldn't think straight and today, you are repeating the same message. I hate to think what would happen if something happened to Nasrallah.
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Walid, it won't be the first time we're losing our Secretary General to Israeli terrorism, that's for sure. In case something like that happens, he wouldn't necessarily be replaced by someone who is more fanatical... it depends on the general orientation of the cadres...
I admire Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah. He has led Hezbollah to victory after victory -- but only on the 'Israeli' front. On the domestic front, I'm afraid I'll have to say that I'm ashamed of our positions. In a sense, participation in domestic politics has blinded us, even 'corrupted' us. We should withdraw from all political life. At the very least, we should refuse to take part in the filthy sectarian games. I don't like it at all. We have supporters from all sects, from all walks of life. No2ta 3al satr. I don't see why we should aim to 'prove' it in any way whatsoever by taking part in sectarian politics. If anything, it is bound to backfire and limit our support base to 'our' sect. Which is a dangerous game to be part of. And now we're too deep in it to be able to get ourselves out of it. Way too deep. Unfortunately. And I openly blame Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah for this. Don't be so shocked. Sayyed Nasrallah is, after all, a human being, and therefore not perfect. We are all prone to making mistakes, and criticism is a healthy thing. I think right now the ONLY way out of this mess is for us to topple the government. Start by revealing all the wartime connections they had with the 'Israelis.' If it fails to bring about change, prepare for 'action' on the ground. And no, I'm not talking about 'peaceful' means that Sayyed Nasrallah always reassures the loyalists we won't go beyond. As they say, la7add hown w bass!!
P.S I have a story or two to tell about Hezb's history with the Syrian presence. I promise it's not something you or anyone else has heard. 
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| Re: Explosions in Lebanon [message #60362 is a reply to message #41613 ] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 20:24 |
plsdeleteaccount
Messages: 3504
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Another thing, Walid. I am not sure I like this personality cult thing around Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah. Sayyed Nasrallah is not the beginning or the end of Hezbollah. He is just a member like any other member. He has led Hezbollah to success and victory during some very rough times, but that was only possible thanks to the sacrifices of thousands of men. It seems that our people like to follow the person rather than the ideology. This is unfortunate, if not outright tragic. I don't like the fact that the sacrifices of our past Martyrs are often glossed over, and instead all the praise is heaped on one person. I think this trend started when other communities joined in their support. I guess that's the price tag for a wider support base. Our traditional support base knows and appreciates all aspects of the Resistance. I am happy that others respect and admire Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah, but for those of us who believe that dedication to our cause is above all else, the personality cult phenomenon is something to be frowned upon, not cheered for. We are a party with a leader, not a leader with a party. And that's what people tend to forget. This is what I tell people who predict that if Sayyed Nasrallah is assassinated, Hezbollah will fall apart. Hezbollah will not fall apart. That's the beauty of it. We are the only party in Lebanon, in the history of Lebanese politics, that is not based on feudalism, family ties, etc. We are the only party in Lebanon whose leader is not 'the' party....
[Updated on: Tue, 15 January 2008 20:27]
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| Re: Explosions in Lebanon [message #60364 is a reply to message #60334 ] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 21:22 |
dana 
Messages: 719
Registered: April 2007
Location: new york/san francisco us... |
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| tsedek wrote on Tue, 15 January 2008 20:07 |
| dana wrote on Tue, 15 January 2008 19:53 |
| tsedek wrote on Tue, 15 January 2008 19:23 |
You honestly think in all seriousness that family of people that 'disappeared' are afraid to talk about it?
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Happens in Iraq all the time. Palestine too is full of the 'disappeared', now well exceeding any of the number of 'disappeared' in Chile and Argentina combined. When Junta's are involved, making people 'disappear' and families shut up is all in a day's work.
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Americans? And their families never raised the question as to where they were? I think you are wrong, dana.
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No, I did not mean Americans, who are known to raie a stink about their "disappeared' (thinking of that famous movie with jack lemon and Sissy Spacek about a 'disappeared American in Chile).
Mine was a [gratuitous] remark about Arabs who are 'disappeared', and no one ever hears or knows anything. There was a story about that very thing in Iraq. Now that's a good question to ask: Israelis will not sit quietly after "disappearances"; neither will Americans; at least not for long. Why do Arabs let it happen to them? fatalism perhaps? powerlessness?
BTW, did the confirmed killed lebanese even have names? wives? girl-friends? children?
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| Re: Explosions in Lebanon [message #60365 is a reply to message #60364 ] |
Tue, 15 January 2008 21:30 |
tsedek 
Messages: 5184
Registered: May 2007
Location: Ramat-Gan |
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| dana wrote on Tue, 15 January 2008 23:22 |
| tsedek wrote on Tue, 15 January 2008 20:07 |
| dana wrote on Tue, 15 January 2008 19:53 |
| tsedek wrote on Tue, 15 January 2008 19:23 |
You honestly think in all seriousness that family of people that 'disappeared' are afraid to talk about it?
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Happens in Iraq all the time. Palestine too is full of the 'disappeared', now well exceeding any of the number of 'disappeared' in Chile and Argentina combined. When Junta's are involved, making people 'disappear' and families shut up is all in a day's work.
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Americans? And their families never raised the question as to where they were? I think you are wrong, dana.
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No, I did not mean Americans, who are known to raie a stink about their "disappeared' (thinking of that famous movie with jack lemon and Sissy Spacek about a 'disappeared American in Chile).
Mine was a [gratuitous] remark about Arabs who are 'disappeared', and no one ever hears or knows anything. There was a story about that very thing in Iraq. Now that's a good question to ask: Israelis will not sit quietly after "disappearances"; neither will Americans; at least not for
long. Why do Arabs let it happen to them? fatalism perhaps? powerlessness?
BTW, did the confirmed killed lebanese even have names? wives? girl-friends? children?
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your reaction was about arabs while i was talking about americans. could you please stick to what i say if you react to me, or open a new topic, please.
It Is A Sin To Kill In God's Name
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| Re: Explosions in Lebanon [message #60410 is a reply to message #60360 ] |
Wed, 16 January 2008 11:06 |
tsedek
Messages: 5184
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| Ashraf wrote on Tue, 15 January 2008 22:10 |
.......In a sense, participation in domestic politics has blinded us, even 'corrupted' us. ............We have supporters from all sects, from all walks of life. No2ta 3al satr. .........it is bound to backfire and limit our support base to 'our' sect. .........Start by revealing all the wartime connections they had with the 'Israelis.' If it fails to bring about change, prepare for 'action' on the ground. And no, I'm not talking about 'peaceful' means that Sayyed Nasrallah always reassures the loyalists we won't go beyond. As they say, la7add hown w bass!!
P.S I have a story or two to tell about Hezb's history with the Syrian presence. I promise it's not something you or anyone else has heard.
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last things first  will you tell here, on the forum? looking forward to that.
ok now from the top down....
1. you have to participate in domestic politics because that is the constitution. you want to break the constitution, you are leading lebanon into another civil war.
2. you have supporters from all walks of life BECAUSE of the 'moderate' line Nasrallah is following in internal politics.
3. is it? backfire on the support of your 'sect'? aren't there hundreds, or thousands or tens of thousands or more shia (your 'sect') being way more moderate than the line you are proposing?
4. with using violence you would replace one 'dictature' with just another. only this 'dictature' would be your ideology. so, what exactly have you accomplished with that?
It Is A Sin To Kill In God's Name
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| Re: Explosions in Lebanon [message #60431 is a reply to message #60388 ] |
Wed, 16 January 2008 12:16 |
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Now if I can get this post through...
Will one of you people kindly elaborate on what Kassem's agenda is about, or that any one of the people whom you deem the extremists who we had better light candles that they don't replace Nasrallah? I'm, er, just curious.
Bracha
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| Re: Explosions in Lebanon [message #60438 is a reply to message #60434 ] |
Wed, 16 January 2008 12:34 |
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No, Karim, please don't be so antagonistic. It is not up to Israel to decide what to do with Nasrallah. And even if it were, it would not be up to me...It is up to you people up there to decide what to do with Nasrallah. I merely wish to learn what makes Hezballah tick.
Bracha
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| Re: Explosions in Lebanon [message #60604 is a reply to message #60308 ] |
Thu, 17 January 2008 17:24 |
Jacob Blues
Messages: 4650
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Location: New York City |
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| Ashraf wrote on Tue, 15 January 2008 18:02 |
Let me tell you this, though. This seems to be part and parcel of the drums of war on Iran beating in Tel Aviv. American and Israeli fingers will now point at us, Hezbollah, and by extension, Iran. In a sense, this nullifies the NIE report. The neo-cons must be relieved once more. Then again, we can't be sure (yet) what impact this will have on America's position on bombing Iran. We have reached, I would say, the peak of the struggle for the soul of America and its foreign policy, and let me tell you, it's going to be one bloody fight.
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Sorry Ashraf, no peak. The neo-con's and their philosophy have long been pushed aside in the White House power structure. All that are left are Bush and Cheney. With less than one year to go on the second term. In local parleance, that's called a lame duck period. In the US, we're dealing with an epilogue, hardly a struggle.
Of course, its always amusing to hear that we're so evil that we're out to kill our own diplomats, just so we can use their deaths as excuses to start a war with Iran.
Reality is, if we want to start a war, we can do it without killing our own.
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| Re: Explosions in Lebanon [message #60606 is a reply to message #60318 ] |
Thu, 17 January 2008 17:30 |
Jacob Blues
Messages: 4650
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Location: New York City |
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| Ashraf wrote on Tue, 15 January 2008 18:31 |
| tsedek wrote on Tue, 15 January 2008 18:23 |
It should be pretty simple to verify whether americans were killed or not.
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TECHNICALLY speaking, yes. POLITICALLY speaking, no. Americans will need some time to admit they lost any personnel (if they do admit it at all). That is why the authorities were quick -- unlike in any other cases -- to prevent anyone from getting close to the site of the explosion, and FBI agents and gun-toting "strange" people who did not speak English (could be 'Israelis' for all we know; this definitely lends credence to the idea that the American embassy is an trojan horse for 'Israeli' terror) were at the scene within, literally, a minute or two.
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One minute? Wow, that's an amazing response time for any group. Did you time it Ashraf? Likewise for the "strangers" who spoke no English. You ask them any questions?
Now for the part they DON'T tell you about: one of the cars belonging to the embassy got completely wrecked (now, how nobody got killed, is beyond me; guess it's one of Bush's and Condie's miracles).
[/quote]
It's called armor.
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Now, any American denial will obviously not appeal to those who were responsible for the attack, as the intention behind it was to get the Americans to react (against whom, is another issue altogether).
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Indeed, we have Karim's polemicist telling us it was a message by anti-American forces telling the US to get out of Lebanon. Kind of like the voices in the Amityville Horror House, before the walls started bleeding.
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| Re: Explosions in Lebanon [message #60607 is a reply to message #60322 ] |
Thu, 17 January 2008 17:34 |
Jacob Blues
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| Ashraf wrote on Tue, 15 January 2008 19:00 |
| tsedek wrote on Tue, 15 January 2008 18:41 |
But those people must have family somewhere. they must be missed one way or another by those? I really don't think people can just disappear from the face of the earth - especially if their families know where they are at. s0, if dead - that will come out, I think.
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Not necessarily. If the intention is to hide the number and identities of the casualties, the fact that they have family will not pose any problems, whatsoever. They will make sure that they wouldn't speak out.
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Sorry Ashraf, but SANA doesn't work in the US very well. Forget the idea of journalistic capitalism, I'll introduce you to the concept of the lawsuit.
Family members of government employees who start dissapearing get very touchy for some reason and we have means of declaring our concern by suing (right or wrong, doesn't matter). Too many people to cover up.
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| Re: Explosions in Lebanon [message #60610 is a reply to message #60609 ] |
Thu, 17 January 2008 17:42 |
ODP1
Messages: 6658
Registered: December 2006 |
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| Jacob Blues wrote on Thu, 17 January 2008 19:39 |
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As I said, this is a battle over the direction of American foreign policy.
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Right, with whom? I didn't realize that there was a pro-Hizballah faction within the US government.
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It's the same faction that takes Lamb and Counterpunch seriously.
[Updated on: Thu, 17 January 2008 17:50]
"The idea of a two state solution is strongly supported [by Pals] but only if the border is the 1967 border and refugees are given the right of return. The question is what type of two state solution [is supported]?"- Dr Jabil Rabah Near East Consulting
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| Re: Explosions in Lebanon [message #60611 is a reply to message #60355 ] |
Thu, 17 January 2008 17:49 |
Jacob Blues
Messages: 4650
Registered: November 2006
Location: New York City |
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| Ashraf wrote on Tue, 15 January 2008 21:24 |
Walid, you will find that there is not much of a difference between Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah and Sheikh Na'im Qassem... Both are moderates from my point of view.
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What makes them 'moderates'?
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Way too moderate. Some say they are wise (at least this is a trait associated with Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah), and I have no doubt that they are; but this does not mean that they are doing things the way they should be done. Some say the 'fanatics' (like me?)
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Why would you be considered an extremist relative to these men?
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are reactionaries who might take Hezb down a dangerous road. I don't buy this
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What would be a dangerous road for Hizballah?
[Updated on: Thu, 17 January 2008 17:49]
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| Re: Explosions in Lebanon [message #60615 is a reply to message #60612 ] |
Thu, 17 January 2008 18:41 |
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| Jacob Blues wrote on Thu, 17 January 2008 19:51 |
You make it sound as if Nassrallah was working for Israel's interests.
What makes you believe that he is a moderate? His view of the world, his ability to work towards reconciliation? His stand towards peace?
And if so, what would be "worse" than him?
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Jacob, moderation can only be determined in relation to something else. So, we have Nasrallah as being a moderate in relation to Kassem, whatever his agenda might be. And if and when Kassem takes over, he will be moderate in relation to ...?
See, the Jews will always have something to be thankful for.  Start lighting candles, guys.
Bracha
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| Re: Explosions in Lebanon [message #61053 is a reply to message #61045 ] |
Sun, 20 January 2008 07:54 |
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Just following Walid's expression, Shuli. Well, start crossing fingers then. Oops, that's Christian, too...er...let's go to the grave of Baba Sali and pray for the eternal health and safety of Sayyid Hassan Nasrallah...
Bracha
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| Re: Explosions in Lebanon [message #61084 is a reply to message #61079 ] |
Sun, 20 January 2008 12:06 |
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Yeah, the Sepharadim know how to do these things better than we do. Maybe we'd better put them in charge of keeping the finger on the pulse of who leads Hezballah. Right now there seems to be nothing but general revved up emotions and calls to get rid of Nasrallah by people who are incensed at the barbaric idea of trading body parts. Just how low are peoplegoing tosink?
Bracha
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