Home » Current and Ongoing Discussions » The Middle East » United Jerusalem
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #111588 is a reply to message #111552 ] |
Thu, 29 October 2009 17:58   |
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| Karen wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 23:37 |
| whodey wrote on Tue, 27 October 2009 00:56 |
Yes, I would think the Judaification of Jerusalem is the purpose. Sure, there are people on the Israeli side who are for co-existence, Palestinians should also be able to live in Jerusalem - but I wonder if that still does not mean a Jerusalem under total Israeli control, where some Palestinians are "allowed" to live?I wonder what percentage of Israelis would truly stand up and speak up for a "right" of Palestinians to live in Jerusalem.
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How many Paelstinians in the past when they had total control truly stood up for the rights of the Jews to vist the Wall. Do we have numbers, names anywhere? How many Jews used to live there when the Jordanians had control of the Temple Mount? Do you think maybe some of past behaviour os some Arabs has somehow coloured the Israeli view of them and that's why they may be a little on the defensive about the wall these days? Something like this for example:
A widespread Arab campaign to protest against presummed Jewish intentions and designs to take possession of the Al Aqsa Mosque swept the country and a "Society for the Protection of the Muslim Holy Places" was established.[43] The Vaad Leumi responding to these Arab fears declared in a statement that: We herewith declare emphatically and sincerely that no Jew has ever thought of encroaching upon the rights of Moslems over their own Holy places, but our Arab brethren should also recognise the rights of Jews in regard to the places in Palestine which are holy to them.[42] The committee also demanded that the British administration expropriate the wall for the Jews.[44]
From October 1928 onward, Mufti Amin al-Husayni organised a series of measures to demonstrate the Arabs' exclusive claims to the Temple Mount and its environs. He ordered new construction next to and above the Western Wall, with bricks often falling on the worshippers below.[45] The British granted the Arabs permission to convert a building adjoining the Wall into a mosque and to add a minaret. A muezzin was appointed to perform the Islamic call to prayer and Sufi rites directly next to the Wall. These were seen as a provocation by the Jews who prayed at the Wall.[46][47] The Jews protested and tensions increased.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Wall
| whodey wrote on Tue, 27 October 2009 00:56 |
So would I, but unfortunately this is how I feel and according to all logic and reason, that is how things stand right now. Can they be changed? Sure, theoretically, but I have no idea how to do it in practice. If you have any ideas, I would be more than glad to hear them and think about them?
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Maybe Whodey the admission that it takes two to tango might be a good starting point.
| sh wrote on Sat, 17 October 2009 17:00 |
They only indicate to the curious either that the subject is not worth bothering with because the battle is lost or that you are an enemy who distorts in order to elicit sympathy; that because of your agenda, you need to portray them as the devil incarnate.
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| whodey wrote on Tue, 27 October 2009 00:56 |
[color=green]That may be so. But it still remains a fact that many Israeli laws are specifically geared to benefit Jews and not only give no consideration to the rights of the Palestinians but are actually intended to negate them. And it's not the Palestinians who can change those laws.
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Just like the Jews couldn't change the laws either. Do you think maybe the policies of Arabs for most of the 20th century may have had some bearing on the views of the Israelis concerning Jersualem even to this day?
During the 1948 Arab-Israeli War the Old City together with the Wall was captured by Jordan. Article VIII of the 1949 Armistice Agreement provided for Israeli Jewish access to the Western Wall. However for the following nineteen years, despite numerous requests by Israeli officials and Jewish groups to the United Nations and other international bodies to attempt to enforce the armistice agreement, Jordan refused to abide by this clause. Some sources claim Jews could only visit the wall if they travelled through Jordan (which was not an option for Israelis) and did not have an Israeli visa stamped in their passports.[51] Others say Jordan even barred non-Israeli Jews, demanding that tourists present a certificate of baptism before a visa would be granted.[52] Only Jordanian soldiers and tourists were to be found there. A vantage point on Mount Zion, from where the Wall could be viewed, became the place where Jews gathered to pray. For thousands of pilgrims, the mount, being the closest location to the Wall under Israeli control, became a substitute site for the traditional priestly blessing ceremony which takes place on the Three Pilgrimage Festivalshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Wall
Little events like the destruction of Joseph's tomb
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_alaqsa_josephsto mb.php
Do you think maybe that has the Israelis/Jews worried? Feeling that there is a Palestinian element that can't be trusted?
I'm staying out of this thread from now on because I just get too emotional to speak coherently. Frankly I find a lot of this story falling into the "You reap what you sow" category.
I find it absolutely outrageous that the Israelis who do let the Arabs in to worship at their third most holy shrine have to put up with this bleating from the Arabs who for years refused point blank to let them anywhere near their own first most holy shrine. How many people of other religions than Muslim live in Mecca as a matter of interest? How many people of other religions can go there as tourists?
If you tell me that finger pointing and tit-for-tat is of no use to resolve these issues, I would agree with you 100%, but if you are also going to tell me that one side is 100% responsible and the other entirely blameless in the causing of the situation that stands today I most certainly would not agree with you. Making accusations and bleating in addition does not make one receptive to the arguments for the other. I am not saying that people ought to be thrown out of their homes but I can understand the Israeli reaction after years of not being allowed near the Western Wall, and a history of Jewish sites being destroyed when under the protection of an Arab body, that they might prefer to keep their holiest site surrounded by their own. It doesn't make it right , but it does make it understandable. Unfortunately in situations like that it's the innocents who suffer as a result. I don't agree with innocents suffering either. But I do believe in people taking responsibility for their own actions – and somehow that never seems to be the case much of the time when the Palestinians are being discussed.
| sh wrote on Sat, 17 October 2009 17:00 |
I'm sorry other forum members have nothing to say about this.
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| whodey wrote on Tue, 27 October 2009 00:56 |
Me too. 
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I bet you all are now 
Karen
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In all honesty...
I find that I agree, which again perhaps suprised me.
However, the house eviction part is completly abhorent, and should be denounced in much stronger terms since it ammounts to etnich cleansing and targeted ethnic settling of illegally annexed territory. You should have been clearer here, Karen!
Though apart from that point, I find that I suprisingly sympatise and actually agree with what you say.
Edit: The sins of the past and the crimes commited generations ago, does not justify retribution. Neither can one comapare todays reigning morallity with that which was reigning prior to WW2. The world has changed and so has philosophy. What people could get away with prior to WW2, one can not get away with today. It is that simple. Thus, I find that I become immensly provoked when people, presumably from the Jewish extremist right, say that they can do this and that because "the Spanish did worse during the reign of Isabelle and the Inquisitions violations".
[Updated on: Thu, 29 October 2009 18:05]
Magnus K.
"The thing that's wrong with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur." -George W. Bush
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #111593 is a reply to message #111588 ] |
Thu, 29 October 2009 19:41 |
 whodey 
Messages: 5179
Registered: December 2006 |
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| Einherjar wrote on Thu, 29 October 2009 17:58 |
| Karen wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 23:37 |
Just like the Jews couldn't change the laws either. Do you think maybe the policies of Arabs for most of the 20th century may have had some bearing on the views of the Israelis concerning Jersualem even to this day?
Do you think maybe that has the Israelis/Jews worried? Feeling that there is a Palestinian element that can't be trusted?
I'm staying out of this thread from now on because I just get too emotional to speak coherently. Frankly I find a lot of this story falling into the "You reap what you sow" category.
Karen
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In all honesty...
I find that I agree, which again perhaps suprised me.
However, the house eviction part is completly abhorent, and should be denounced in much stronger terms since it ammounts to etnich cleansing and targeted ethnic settling of illegally annexed territory. You should have been clearer here, Karen!
Though apart from that point, I find that I suprisingly sympatise and actually agree with what you say.
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Magnus, if you agree with Karen, may I ask if you do not think that the Zionist policies and actions of the 20th century had any bearing on the views of the Palestinians on Jews nor any influence on the Arab policies and actions?
Do you think that If someone comes with a stated intent to evict you or negate your rights and take your house and land and you resist or even attack that person, is that the same as that person now in turn "defending" himself against your attack?
Do you think that the record of Israel non-compliance with UN resolutions and non-adherence to treaties it signed maybe has the Palestinians worried too? That maybe they feel that there is a strong Jewish element that cannot be trusted? Let's not forget in that context that Israeli violence towards Palestinians is immensely greater and active 24/7/52, not isolated instances as in the case of Palestinian violence towards Israelis?
I feel that many people who have never been to Israel and the OT do not have a clear picture of what the situation is really like. And I would imagine that some wouldn't want to know anyway.
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #111598 is a reply to message #111593 ] |
Thu, 29 October 2009 20:02 |
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| whodey wrote on Thu, 29 October 2009 19:41 |
| Einherjar wrote on Thu, 29 October 2009 17:58 |
| Karen wrote on Wed, 28 October 2009 23:37 |
Just like the Jews couldn't change the laws either. Do you think maybe the policies of Arabs for most of the 20th century may have had some bearing on the views of the Israelis concerning Jersualem even to this day?
Do you think maybe that has the Israelis/Jews worried? Feeling that there is a Palestinian element that can't be trusted?
I'm staying out of this thread from now on because I just get too emotional to speak coherently. Frankly I find a lot of this story falling into the "You reap what you sow" category.
Karen
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In all honesty...
I find that I agree, which again perhaps suprised me.
However, the house eviction part is completly abhorent, and should be denounced in much stronger terms since it ammounts to etnich cleansing and targeted ethnic settling of illegally annexed territory. You should have been clearer here, Karen!
Though apart from that point, I find that I suprisingly sympatise and actually agree with what you say.
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Magnus, if you agree with Karen, may I ask if you do not think that the Zionist policies and actions of the 20th century had any bearing on the views of the Palestinians on Jews nor any influence on the Arab policies and actions?
Do you think that If someone comes with a stated intent to evict you or negate your rights and take your house and land and you resist or even attack that person, is that the same as that person now in turn "defending" himself against your attack?
Do you think that the record of Israel non-compliance with UN resolutions and non-adherence to treaties it signed maybe has the Palestinians worried too? That maybe they feel that there is a strong Jewish element that cannot be trusted? Let's not forget in that context that Israeli violence towards Palestinians is immensely greater and active 24/7/52, not isolated instances as in the case of Palestinian violence towards Israelis?
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I don`t understand anything of what you are saying (or rather I don`t understand why you are adressing THAT to me of all people).
Of course I agree with what you write above, but I also agree with what she said! You should have known by now that I can critiscise Israeli policies fairly harsly, but I have no black and white vision, or at least, I try not to have (we all fail sometimes).
Nothing of what you write above contradicts what she wrote.
Did you notice that I actually blasted her for the house eviction part? What she described was pshycology, and it is INDEED logical.
There is no contradiction. But there ARE nuances! And quite a lot of them.
Even though I usually label Netanyahu as a neo-fascist, it doesn`t mean that I think the he is perfectly comparable to Muossolini. Nuances. Nuances. They can be important.
Again, I fail to see the contradiction between what I wrote and what you wrote.
Magnus K.
"The thing that's wrong with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur." -George W. Bush
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #111810 is a reply to message #111598 ] |
Wed, 04 November 2009 08:42 |
Walid 
Messages: 14089
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What is the difference between Netanyahu and Mussolini besides the way they dress?
A report on what is happening in Jerusalem from Bernard Avishai and little apartheid-like facts that are not being discussed:
Palestine Economy: Update
by Bernard Avishai from the West Bank
Tuesday, November 3, 2009
WHICH BRINGS ME to increasingly ominous economic trends in East Jerusalem, the once and historic hub of all West Bank cities, including Ramallah. The former economics minister of the Palestinian Authority, Bassim Khoury, recently sent me his summary of depressing data ferreted out of Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics. The conclusions suggest why Ramallah's business class may well lose the race to preempt a Bosnia-type violence that may engulf them and Jerusalem both:
Per capita income of Arabs in Jerusalem is less than half of Jews, who are on average the poorest in Israel. Unemployment among Arabs is 25%, 10% higher than in the West Bank as a whole. Infant mortality is almost double that of Jews, though the birthrate is about the same. About 85% of the municipal education budget goes to Jews, 15% to Arabs, though Arabs are about 30% of the grade school population. 50% of Arabs live under the poverty line, while 25% of Jews do so. This means both Arabs and Jews have about 125,000 people officially defined as "impoverished," but the Jews get 88% of the welfare budget. The city of Jerusalem spends about five times more on Jews than on Arabs per capita for municipal services of all kinds (sewage, garbage collection, etc.). Jews get 98% of the "cultural" budget.
Remember, East Jerusalem is now separated from the other West Bank cities by a wall. The idea was to fence out deadly violence. But the trajectory of social relations in the city suggest violence is only being fenced in. (This was predictable.) Last week's disturbances at Al-Aqsa suggest how it will start, which is pretty much the way violence has started in Jerusalem since 1920. Considering the Jewish people's past, it would be rude to call East Jerusalem a kind of ghetto. So let's just call it a walled-in, patrolled, increasingly impoverished enclave for people with diminishing political rights and unlimited encouragement to leave.
Yasir Barakat, among the most established merchants in the Old City, tells me he knows "nobody whose educated children are not planning to leave Jerusalem if they can." Yasir is one of my oldest friends in Jerusalem. He is not sleeping well. His daughter is now in Dubai, a son is studying in England, and another son, with a degree in network security from England, is working (for now) in Ramallah. "Let's be honest. There is no give-and-take anymore. The Jews think this all belongs to them and that's that."
http://bernardavishai.blogspot.com/2009/11/palestine-economy -update.html]
[Updated on: Wed, 04 November 2009 08:46]
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #112173 is a reply to message #112167 ] |
Thu, 19 November 2009 06:31 |
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| whodey wrote on Thu, 19 November 2009 05:21 |
| sh wrote on Wed, 18 November 2009 22:26 |
It is reported that Netanyahu is proposing a 10-month, total settlement freeze but that will not include East Jerusalem. If they at least got him to freeze demolitions, maybe that would be a way to circumvent that position sufficiently to get everyone around a table.
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I am sorry, shuli, but I dont think some temporary cosmetic "concessions" are going to do it anymore to get anyone to the table - "unprecedented" as they may be. That ship has sailed.
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I have to agree here. I don't think Abbas and Erekat will believe anything unless they see it. And maybe not even then, at this point.
Our former Vice Presidential candidate, Sarah Palin has now weighed in on Gilo and the Settlement enterprise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRohtFov-10
I wasn't aware that Israel was experiencing so dramatic of a population surge right now.
And Apparently Obama has actually expressed some anger. I haven't seen the Obama clip. But maybe the reporters are mischaracterizing his reaction.
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent - Isaac Asimov
Mark of Lewiston
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #112176 is a reply to message #112167 ] |
Thu, 19 November 2009 07:34 |
sh 
Messages: 8918
Registered: December 2006
Location: Israel |
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| whodey wrote on Thu, 19 November 2009 05:21 |
| sh wrote on Wed, 18 November 2009 22:26 |
It is reported that Netanyahu is proposing a 10-month, total settlement freeze but that will not include East Jerusalem. If they at least got him to freeze demolitions, maybe that would be a way to circumvent that position sufficiently to get everyone around a table.
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I am sorry, shuli, but I dont think some temporary cosmetic "concessions" are going to do it anymore to get anyone to the table - "unprecedented" as they may be. That ship has sailed.
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I don't either, but that's the way diplomacy works and the weasels that engage in it understand its codes. With all those sailed ships, Mitchell managed something in Northern Ireland, so I can only conclude that that world is not mine and reason my way.
Joe, our Joe who hasn't visited since Gaza, posted on Haaretz the only idea I've lately been thinking would work. I tried to say something of that kind to someone in Silwan once, but hadn't formulated it enough then to put it like this. I do not agree with the last sentence but didn't want to tamper with the post which I think is otherwise brilliant.
Let them build, time to end "2 state solution" farce
Name: Joe
City: State: Free Tejas/ Occupied Palestine
Palestinians are approaching this whole affair from the wrong angle. They should not be demanding for ending settlement freeze but be demanding RIGHTS TO LIVE IN THESE SETTLEMENTS. That`s the only way Jews will even begin to think twice about expanding into Palestinian territory. In fact, since Jews can live in Ramallah, Palestinians should be seeking rights to build in Tel-Aviv. Palestinians need to abandon fighting over every rock and go after what is immutable and cannot be usurped by any military might and that is civil, human and political rights. This approach will force Jews, yes, even Jews, to have their Jesus moment. Is one state really what they want - because that`s where it`s going and that is where Palestinians need to stop with this waffling business and make this perfectly clear. It`s time for Palestinians to demand to vote, demand they be able to drive on the same roads as Jews, and so on and so forth. The "2 state option" is a scam of biblical proportion. Zionists started to give it lip service after it became impossible to achieve with the "new facts on ground" settlement campaign.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1129053.html
[Updated on: Thu, 19 November 2009 07:43]
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #112298 is a reply to message #112176 ] |
Sat, 21 November 2009 12:18 |
Karen
Messages: 3481
Registered: October 2006 |
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An article on Jerusalem from the BBC today.
Life in Jerusalem's city of three faiths
Jerusalem's Old City is a district containing a number of holy sites venerated by Muslims, Christians and Jews. The BBC's Heather Sharp, who moved into a home within its walls last year, reports on daily life in a dense tangle of narrow, winding alleyways.
Jerusalem's Old City is sacred to Jews, Christians and Muslims
Our first night was a disaster.
We had finally got the keys to our new home. A wiry teenager had wheeled our bed on a handcart through the narrow, carless streets.
But as we turned out the light, Arabic pop music, cheers and whistles blasted in through the window of our new flat as neighbours celebrated a wedding.
And after just a few hours sleep we were jolted awake by the sound of a massive, room-shaking bang.
We eventually worked out that it was not the start of the third intifada, or Palestinian uprising. It was just a cannon fired to signal the start of the day's fast during the Muslim month of Ramadan.
Read on
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspon dent/8369687.stm
I remember being in Jerusalem many years ago at the end of Ramadam, and jumping out of my skin when the canon fired!
Karen
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #112299 is a reply to message #112176 ] |
Sat, 21 November 2009 14:06 |
Walid
Messages: 14089
Registered: October 2006 |
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Joe's post was very good; it reminded me that this proposal was discussed here 1.5 years ago between Amira and Dana but that at that time no one was attentive to Dana's brilliant post because they were too busy nit-picking at her words instead of picking at her arguments. She had been promising for a while to devulge her 12-point solution to the conflict but when she finally listed only 7 points, someone counted only 7 in her proposal and called her on the missing 5. I always thought that Dana was ahead of her time and that she was able to see through many things here much more than most of us. Joe's posts were equally brilliant and suffered the same incomprehension by the members.
| dana wrote on Sun, 30 March 2008 10:59 |
| amira wrote on Sat, 29 March 2008 16:29 |
I know that's why you think the idea of a Palestinian state is ludicrous. I'm not Palestinian so I don't know how Palestinians feel about all this, but I've pondered that if they were smart they'd all apply for Israeli citizenship and then just live there, so there wouldn't be problems with settlements and occupied territories and the like. I've heard that Palestinians were offered Israeli citizenship before and rejected it - can't vouch for the accuracy of my source - but the smart ones would jump at it now!
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They can apply - but then israel does not have to accept the application, do they? After all, israel recognizes a right of return only for jews (unless they are from the soviet union, in which case, it's wink, wink...then hope that somehow conversion can take care of the laggards).
So, we need to get more sophisticated. Here is my suggestion (to add to yours):
The palestinians declare themselves members of a long-forgotten Jewish sect descended directly from the once lost, but now miraculously found, tribes. Call themselves Jewmusq, for example (walid liked that name, But I'm open to suggestions). Great DNA research will conclusively establish ethnic linkage - probably far and beyond what the great immigrants from the soviet union and other countries can claim.
Some good reform - or reconstructionist - rabbis from the US, will perform mass conversions of the Plaestinians, basically adding passover, tisha be'av, yom kippur, aqnd purim to the list of official holidays (without eliminating any on the ones already on the muslim calendar) and reaffirming prohibitions on pork consumption. Since both the Qu'ran and the new testament spring off the jewish tanach anyways, I see no problem stocking the library shelves with a few more thousand copies of the old testament (though maybe the ones for children will have to revise some drawings). Given the cursory study of the talmud in israel's secular schools, there should be little problem adapting the same curriculum in the arabic schools in the west bank (OK, I'd again suggest the reconstructionist interpretation - very deep....very new age).
Great religious scholars will be invited to combine halachic and sharia teachings, which should help tourism in the entire ME too, while directing the minds of the multitudes of all sides to spiritual musings - thus taking attention off our - now turned dysfunctional - primary in the US.
Most importantly - the legal system will be revamped - palestine will declare itself officially under israeli law and the PA will start a crush legal education program for all palestinians - young, old and in the middle. Forget that Jordainian system - too last century. Then it'll be time to recast the whole conflict as a civil rights struggle. I know, of course, a few good jewish (and non-jewish) lawyers from the US who'll be glad to help - they know all about those jom crow days and how to avoid that trap.
Oh yes, there is that little problem with hamas but that's OK - maybe we send Ashraf to negotiate on their behalf with the Jews. I imagine it'll all work out after a couple of weeks of training to teach the slackers how to answer him point-by-point in intensive teach-ins.
Follow this program and you'll have a perfect resolution in no time (say - two years?).
Now why, pray do tell, is my solution any less realistic than anyone else's?
PS people should really look into these reconstructionist movements. Kind of interesting. I think maybe it's the future....
PPS Ashraf - are you ever going to answer me too? If you don't, I'll assume you are in violent agreement with everything I say (which can't possibly be good for the health....physical, mental or spiritual....). Worse yet, I'll assume that you have now made common cause with the one and only tsedek to ignore me as "probably right and/or righteous, assuming we could ever understand a word..."
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #112447 is a reply to message #112302 ] |
Mon, 23 November 2009 23:10 |
sh
Messages: 8918
Registered: December 2006
Location: Israel |
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Haaretz didn't think this was worth opening a talkback for and for some reason it disappeared off the radar pretty sharpish.
Jerusalem Syndrome
By Akiva Eldar
Sometimes tourists show up at Jerusalem's mental health centers, convinced that a voice from the heavens told them they were the messiah. The illness, commonly known as Jerusalem Syndrome, usually passes once they have left the city. However, Israelis, mostly public figures, have been afflicted with this syndrome for the past 42 years, affecting their ability to distinguish between reality and fantasy. Jerusalem has become the Disneyland of the Jewish people.
For many of those affected by this disturbing disease, it extends beyond Jerusalem. It begins with the transformation of an Arab village in the middle of the West Bank into a "Jerusalem neighborhood," and ends with the description of occupied territory in the heart of the West Bank, like Ariel, as "a settlement bloc." First we shape a new reality for ourselves; then we expect the entire world to adopt it, demand that our neighbors pay the cost, and complain that we have no partner for peace.
What could they possibly want from us? That was the combined reaction of the president, the mayor, the cabinet ministers and the head of the opposition. After all, they said, Gilo is at the heart of the Israeli consensus. What does that consensus mean? Reminder: In June 1967 Israel annexed to Jerusalem some 70 square kilometers of West Bank territory, including 28 Palestinian municipalities and villages that were never considered part of the city. When Jordan controlled Jerusalem, it was six square kilometers, including the Old City, whose territory is no more than a single square kilometer.
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Since 1967, some 30 percent of East Jerusalem land has been appropriated for the construction of new neighborhoods for some 200,000 Israelis. Indeed, there is consensus among Israelis that in a peace agreement that would include exchange of territory, Gilo would remain under Israeli sovereignty. But not in a unilateral step that would not be recognized by any other country. Around the world, there is wall-to-wall agreement that East Jerusalem is at best disputed territory; in the Arab world, the consensus is that it is occupied territory.
The situation in the city since 1967 has perpetuated the deep chasm that divides its two parts and the two peoples living in it, and separates the empty slogans from the reality on the ground. Thus, for example, Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat complained loudly about the Obama administration, which he claimed discriminates between the residents of the city "on the basis of religion and ethnicity." It is hard to imagine that Barkat is not aware that by law, only Israeli citizens, or those entitled to citizenship on the basis of the Law of Return, are entitled to purchase a plot of what is considered state land. Since the Palestinians in East Jerusalem are city residents but almost none are citizens of the country, they are not entitled to purchase plots in a third of the lands that have been expropriated from them in order to set up Israeli neighborhoods/settlements. The result: The residential density in Arab neighborhoods is nearly double that in Jewish neighborhoods (11.9 square meters per person compared to 23.8 square meters per person).
In a democratic society like the one in Israel, it is understood that the unification of the two parts of the city carries with it equality for all its residents. But in actuality, nearly half the Palestinian students in East Jerusalem do not study in the municipal education system; some 9,000 of them do not appear on the records of the city's education authorities, and it is not known whether they receive any form of education. The Education Ministry and the Jerusalem municipality have promised the Supreme Court that they will build at least 645 classrooms in East Jerusalem to start making up for the shortfall; more than 1,350 classrooms are needed. In practice, less than 100 new classrooms have been built. To this day, filth, neglect and unpaved roads clearly mark the border between the two peoples living in the city.
Shimon Peres traveled to Egypt yesterday. For months Peres has advocated, in Israel and abroad, a plan for a temporary Palestinian state and the postponement of the debate over Jerusalem to better days. The consistent Palestinian opposition to this idea does not appear to affect him. According to our peace-loving president, since Jerusalem is at the core of Israeli consensus, the Arabs must not only adjust their own consensus regarding Jerusalem but also agree that in the meantime, until we agree to allow the issue to be brought to the negotiating table, we should continue to behave in East Jerusalem as though it is ours, and only ours.
Israeli conduct in Jerusalem, and the side effects that emerged as a result of the criticism of the construction plans in Gilo, suggest that Jerusalem Syndrome has now afflicted all of society. We can only hope that it is not an incurable disease.
http://shalom-salaam.net/forum/
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #112655 is a reply to message #112447 ] |
Sat, 28 November 2009 17:39 |
sh
Messages: 8918
Registered: December 2006
Location: Israel |
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Seth Freedman sounding angry on Comment is Free, Thursday. Did you know that there is a "CiF Watch" forum according to which Seth Freedman qualifies as a founder-member of the Grand Order of Self Hating Jews - GoshJew? (No, I just made that up.) Anyone for starting a forum?
Israel's occupation, linked by rail
The architects of Israel's occupation of the West Bank are highly skilled at the art of needlework, deftly stitching up land inside Israel proper and disputed territory over the Green Line as though it was the most natural thing in the world. According to their logic, it should be possible to seamlessly suture together the two parts without raising eyebrows either at home or abroad, regardless of the contravention of both international law and basic morality that such actions entail.
All that is required is a healthy dose of chutzpah, combined with a drip-drip effect in which a steady stream of expropriating activities are undertaken at a slow but relentless pace, in the hope that insufficient feathers are ruffled to put a halt to the overarching campaign of annexation.
The Jerusalem light railway is a case in point: in isolation, few Israelis would be too perturbed by the idea of providing a rail link between the city centre and outlying towns and suburbs on the periphery of the capital. However, in doing so, the authorities are simultaneously declaring their view that settlements such as French Hill and Pisgat Ze'ev are integral parts of Jerusalem and banging yet another nail into the coffin of a viable Palestinian state.
Under the guise of a desire to ease traffic congestion on Jerusalem's streets, the project bears all the hallmarks of previous efforts to stake a permanent and intractable claim to areas that once might have been considered as appropriate territory to concede as part of a permanent settlement with the Palestinians. As the Alternative Information Centre notes, "by providing direct access to [these locations], the main illegal settlements will finally be linked with the centre and western part of the City. The adverse effects of this will serve to diminish any chance of East Jerusalem becoming the future capital of a Palestinian state under a two-state solution".
Palestinian officials this week issued a call for overseas assistance in preventing the completion of the rail link, having recognised that without such external pressure there is no hope of putting a halt to the illegal construction. Basing their opposition on statutes that deem such building work a violation of international law, the Palestinian Authority urged all Arab countries to end their links with companies associated with the light railway – including French conglomerates Veolia and Alstom – in the hope that such a stance would encourage the corporations involved to pull out of the project.
The Palestinians know full well that the rail link's presence will further ingrain in Israelis' minds the idea that every affected township over the Green Line is to be viewed simply as a benign part of Greater Jerusalem, rather than a malignant settlement that threatens the security of both Israelis and Palestinians in the long term. To confirm their fears, they need only look as far as Gilo or Har Homa, both areas built over the Green Line outside Jerusalem's original city limits, but now treated as no more contentious than Rehavia or the German Colony when it comes to Israel's continued construction there.
Last week's international criticism of plans to build a further 900 homes in Gilo raised hackles among the Israeli public. Many Israelis have become so accustomed to the idea that Gilo is part of Israel proper that they cannot for the life of them understand why anyone should deny them the right to construct houses there at will. Such a mind-set did not develop overnight; rather, it took years of patient joining of the dots by successive Israeli governments – by way of transport links, forging social ties between Gilo and other parts of Jerusalem, and so on – to convince Israelis that Gilo had come in from the cold and was now Jerusalem through and through.
When my army unit was based in Har Gilo (a suburb of Gilo even deeper into West Bank territory), none of the residents living alongside our headquarters saw themselves as settlers. Those to whom we spoke thought of themselves as simply Jerusalemites with no more reason to feel guilty about the location of their homes than those dwelling in Tel Aviv or Haifa. The fact that their houses were a stone's throw from Palestinian towns such as Bet-Jalla did little to change their minds: the Israeli government had thrown a comforting arm around their shoulders and told them all was well, and that was what mattered. But all is not well – whether in terms of Israel's relationship with the outside world, the spectre looming of a third Palestinian intifada, or the fact that Israelis are unquestioningly becoming more and more used to their collective status as perpetual oppressors of another people – and time is not on the peace camp's side.
The light railway and the construction plans for Gilo are not deal-breakers on their own, but the whole is greater than the sum of the parts when it comes to the annexation of the West Bank, and all interested parties should be doing their utmost to oppose anything that further cements an Israeli presence in the area. To sit back and do nothing is to be complicit with the insidious plans of those who seek never to accommodate Palestinian needs in terms of their statehood. Israelis, Palestinians and outsiders alike must continue to stand up to the occupation machine's operators, before the rot sets in completely and for ever.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/nov/26/israel-o ccupation-jerusalem-light-railway
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #113030 is a reply to message #110430 ] |
Thu, 10 December 2009 10:30 |
whodey 
Messages: 5179
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More bad news from Jerusalem:
[Updated on: Thu, 10 December 2009 10:32]
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #113331 is a reply to message #113030 ] |
Sat, 19 December 2009 20:57 |
sh
Messages: 8918
Registered: December 2006
Location: Israel |
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Introducing Gershon Baskin
Gershon Baskin, Ph.D., is the Israeli Co-Director and founder of the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information (IPCRI) - a joint Israeli-Palestinian public policy think. Dr. Baskin initiated the founding of IPCRI in 1988 following ten years of work in the field of Jewish-Arab relations within Israel, in Interns for Peace, the Ministry of Education and as Executive Director of the Institute for Education for Jewish-Arab Coexistence (established by the Israeli Ministry of Education and the Prime Minister's Office). Dr. Baskin has published books and hundreds of articles in the Hebrew, English and Arabic press about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict including: A Model Interim Agreement, Aspects of Internal Security in During the Interim Period, The Future of Jerusalem , How to Conduct Business in the Palestinian Territories , The Future of the Israeli Settlements in Final Status Negotiation, and more. Dr. Baskin meets regularly with Israeli and Palestinian policy makers at their invitation as well as similar people from the international diplomatic community and international organizations. Dr. Baskin was a member of the Jerusalem Experts Committee established by the Israeli Prime Minister's Office during the Final Status Negotiations in 2000-2001. Dr. Baskin holds a Ph.D. in International Affairs. His dissertation was on Sovereignty and Territory in the Future of Jerusalem, parts of which were published as a book Jerusalem of Peace. Dr. Baskin is a member of the Israeli Council for Peace and Security; he is the Chairman of the Board of Directors of MAKOM, the Israeli Center for Environment Mediation and he was a founding chairman of Kehilat Kol Haneshama in Jerusalem where he served as Chairman for three years. Dr. Baskin speaks Hebrew, English and Arabic.
This is a piece he wrote on Jerusalem for the Jerusalem Post a couple of weeks back.
Dec 7, 2009 22:48 | Updated Dec 8, 2009 17:03
Encountering Peace: 2 capitals for 2 states for 2 peoples
By GERSHON BASKIN
Not one country in the world recognizes our capital, Jerusalem, as the capital of Israel. Even the United States footnotes the following on the State Department Web page: Israel proclaimed Jerusalem as its capital in 1950. The US, like nearly all other countries, maintains its embassy in Tel Aviv. UN Security Council Resolution 478 declared the 1980 Jerusalem Law that declared Jerusalem to be Israel's "eternal and indivisible" capital null and void, affirming that it was a violation of international law.
The European Union is debating its own position on Jerusalem. The debate is a much better reflection of the reality of Jerusalem than any of the governing politicians in Jerusalem have the courage to admit. After lying to the public for 42 years about Jerusalem being the united eternal capital of Israel, it is time to admit there are two Jerusalems - one Israeli and one Palestinian. Even Teddy Kollek, the 20th century Herod, admitted in 1988 that "coexistence in Jerusalem is dead." This was a great blow for the man who believed he had united the city.
Since the birth of the State of Israel, Jerusalem has never been united. From 1949 to 1967, it was divided by a wall and barbed wire, and since 1967 it has been divided politically, culturally, ethnically and nationally. While it is true that the massive Israeli annexation of land and building in what was once called east Jerusalem has changed the definitions of the division, with a near Jewish majority in east Jerusalem, the geography is not the proper definitive term. It is more correct to speak about Israeli Jerusalem and Palestinian Jerusalem.
LET'S ADMIT it to ourselves, we, as Israelis, don't really care about the Palestinian parts of Jerusalem. Even though they have been under our rule for the past 42 years, we don't treat them as equal parts of the city. They do not receive nearly the same services as Israeli neighborhoods. Their educational system is backward, underfunded, crowded and incapable of filling the needs of the people there. Today, one of Jerusalem's Palestinian neighborhoods, Kafr Akab, is located beyond the separation wall after the Kalandiya checkpoint.
We have to sincerely ask ourselves: Do we really want the Shuafat refugee camp as part of the eternal undivided capital of the State of Israel? To the best of my knowledge we do not chant: If I forget thee Umm Tuba, let my right hand wither, or by the waters of Babylon, we sat and wept when we remembered thee Jebl Mukaber.
We do not say: Next year in Walaja and we certainly do not pray for the peace of Sur Bahir. For Beit Hanina's sake, I will not be silent.
In a way, we are fortunate that the city is so segregated - it makes its political partition possible. As a member of prime minister Ehud Barak's expert committee on Jerusalem prior to the Taba summit in January 2001, we sat around a large aerial photograph and drew lines of division of sovereignty, based on the Clinton parameters for Jerusalem which stated: what's Jewish to Israel, what's Arab to the Palestinians. We were instructed by the prime minister to design Israel's strategy for the future of Jerusalem on that basis, and it can be done.
Of course, the most sensitive part of Jerusalem is the Old City. It is less than one square kilometer and is composed of four quarters - the Muslim (the largest quarter by far), Christian, Armenian and Jewish. There are two possible solutions for the Old City: a special international regime which would protect and guarantee the rights and the security of all within its walls or the application of the Clinton parameters to it as well - meaning that the Palestinians would have sovereignty over the Muslim, Christian and probably the Armenian quarters and Israel would have sovereignty over the Jewish Quarter.
The heart of the heart of Jerusalem is the Temple Mount/Haram al-Sharif. For the Muslims, it is their third most holy place. Here Ibrahim brought Ishmael for sacrifice (according to their tradition) and here the prophet Muhammad ascended to heaven to begin receiving the revelation of the Koran. For Muslims, the commandment of hajj is not complete until visiting Jerusalem after Mecca and Medina.
For Jews, it is the most holy place. Wherever Jews are in the world they face Jerusalem in prayer and within Jerusalem, they turn their prayers to the Temple Mount. Current and long-standing Halacha, and the decisions of the Chief Rabbinate and the important haredi rabbis, is that Jews should not enter the Temple Mount. The reason is that we don't know the location of the Holy of Holies and the rabbis want to prevent the site from becoming impure.
Since 1967, Israel has claimed sovereignty over the Temple Mount, but in practice it is controlled by the Muslim authorities. It would be completely possible to turn the status quo into de facto Muslim sovereignty and from the Jewish point of view, we could easily say that when the messiah comes, the terms of sovereignty can be changed (if so desired by God).
Recognizing that Jerusalem is two cities is the first step to making peace with the Palestinians and the Arabs. Jerusalem should not be left for the end of the process. The Europeans got it right - peace begins with Jerusalem. The walls and fences that have been built in the city over the past years must come down. The only walls that should remain are those around the Old City.
Jerusalem will become a place of great international importance - when there are over 150 embassies in the city (that could serve two states) and it is open, modernized, environmentally conscious, as cities of international importance are. Then, it will not only be the city of peace, it will also be a much more pleasant city to live in.
Resolving that Jerusalem will be the capital of two states is not only doable, it is the only way that Jerusalem will be recognized as the capital of Israel.
The writer is co-CEO of the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information (www.ipcri.org) and a member of the leaders
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1260181012810& ;pagename=JPArticle%2FShowFull
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #113351 is a reply to message #110430 ] |
Sun, 20 December 2009 19:02 |
whodey 
Messages: 5179
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NO MILK FOR PALESTINIAN TODDLERS IN SILWAN
Looks like the Mayor of Jerusalem stops at nothing to make life as unpleasant and unbearable for the residents of Silwan in order to get rid of them.
Jerusalem mayor cuts health funds for Arab children
By Nir Hasson
Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat on Thursday rejected municipal recommendations and cut funding for a toddler health-care center in East Jerusalem, while approving aid to a similar center in a Jewish neighborhood.
The funds would have gone to opening a branch of the "Drop of Milk" (Tipat Halav) program, which provides prenatal and toddler health-care services in Silwan, an Arab neighborhood in East Jerusalem.
Last year, authorities from the Jerusalem municipal offices recommended to the mayor to open the aid center in Silwan, which would service around 100,000 residents.
Authorities also recommended opening a similar center in a Jewish neighborhood that is home to around 7,000 residents.
During discussions on the 2010 budget, Barkat decided to cut the aid that would open the center in Silwan while simultaneously approving the aid to open the same center in a Jewish neighborhood - a move that outraged residents of Silwan.
"I don't understand why there is a 'Drop of Milk' center in the mayor's neighborhood while there is none in ours?" asked Silwan resident Fakhri Abu Diab. "Why does he deserve one and we don't? Are my children different from his children?
"Soon, Hamas will open a 'Drop of Milk' center and we will go there," Abu Diab added.
Jerusalem city councilwoman Laura Wharton condemned the decision.
"This decision is caused by discrimination against the Arab population and I hope that we will succeed to reverse it," Wharton said.
As opposed to most of Israel, the 'Drop of Milk' program in Jerusalem is under municipal authority.
Like other health services in Jerusalem, including toddler care, there is a wide gap in services provided to residents in East and West Jerusalem.
Other Jerusalem areas under public jurisdiction contain a total of 25 'Drop of Milk' centers, while East Jerusalem, with its 250,000 residents, is home to just four Drop of Milk centers.
Many residents of East Jerusalem have difficulty taking their children long distances in order to receive care. This results in many children not receiving vaccinations as well as a delay in services for sick children living in East Jerusalem.
In response, the Jerusalem municipality said that they are working to improve services provided to the residents of Silwan and they still intend to build a 'Drop of Milk' center in the Arab neighborhood in the future.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1136334.html
[Updated on: Sun, 20 December 2009 19:03]
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #114363 is a reply to message #114358 ] |
Tue, 05 January 2010 10:10 |
sh
Messages: 8918
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Location: Israel |
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Irving Moskowitz is helping see to it that east Jerusalem's exemption (because in contrast to the rest, "formally annexed") from the West Bank construction ban is not forgotten.
The construction project was initiated and constructed by American Jewish millionaire Irving Moskowitz, who also owns the Shepherd Hotel in East Jerusalem. That hotel made headlines last year when Moskowitz obtained a permit to build 20 apartments for Jews there, sparking angry protests from the U.S. government.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu declared last week a plan to construct an additional 700 apartments in East Jerusalem, a move the White House called another blow to stalled peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.
"Neither party should engage in efforts or take actions that could unilaterally pre-empt, or appear to pre-empt, negotiations," said spokesman Robert Gibbs. "Rather, both parties should return to negotiations without preconditions as soon as possible."
The press secretary added that the status of Jerusalem is a permanent status issue that must be resolved by the parties through negotiations and supported by the international community.
"We believe that through good faith negotiations the parties can mutually agree on an outcome that realizes the aspirations of both parties for Jerusalem, and safeguards its status for people around the world," he said.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1140057.html
The piece contains an inaccuracy or two as well, but fact is that construction approvals for Jews in East Jerusalem continue apace, a condition not balanced out by construction approvals for East Jerusalem's non-Jewish residents.
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #114440 is a reply to message #114363 ] |
Wed, 06 January 2010 15:52 |
sh
Messages: 8918
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Here's the Jerusalem municipality and Moskowitz again!
Israel approves construction of new E. Jerusalem neighborhood
By Yair Ettinger, Haaretz Correspondent, and Haaretz Service
The Jerusalem planning and building committee approved on Wednesday a plan to build a new Jewish neighborhood in East Jerusalem of Shuafat, Israel Radio reported.
The plan includes three new five-story buildings, which will be erected on a 5,000-meter plot, and will be funded by American-Jewish millionaire Irving Moskovich, rightist activist Arie King told Army Radio.
Netanyahu's government and Ehud Barak's behavior in East Jerusalem resembles that of gangs and theft in broad daylight," Hadash chairman Mohammed Barakeh said in response to the decision.
"These decisions are not conditions to begin negotiations, but rather tools of destruction which crush every glimmer of hope for peace," he added.
Earlier the committee approved the construction of four residential buildings on the Mount of Olives in East Jerusalem, which are expected to enter construction before the end of the month.
On Sunday, left-wing party Meretz appealed against the request of HaMa'ayan, a firm supported by the Elad settlement organization, for the construction in East Jerusalem, resulting in a decision to hold another vote of the city council.
This time, Jerusalem Mayor Nir Barkat will be required to take a clear stance on his view on new Jewish construction in East Jerusalem.
Sources in the municipality maintain that the matter is apolitical, and has to do with privately owned land, but sources in Meretz say they hope the political leadership will pressure Barkat to reject the request for new construction, at least temporarily.
Meanwhile, there is confidence on the right that approval of the construction will be finalized in the near future.
At the vote of the municipal committee for planning and construction on Monday it was decided to authorize four plans that will expand the built-up area in the Beit Orot yeshiva complex, which is situated at the edge of the Palestinian village of A-Tur. Accordingly, four three-storey structures will be built, with a total capacity of 24 apartments.
The yeshiva's management refused to clearly answer yesterday whether this would constitute the core of a new neighborhood that would be built close to the yeshiva, or simply buildings for the families of those studying or employed by the institution.
The White House recently made clear in a statement that it opposes new Israeli construction in East Jerusalem, which is predominantly Arab and tapped by the Palestinians to be the capital of a future state.
"Neither party should engage in efforts or take actions that could unilaterally preempt, or appear to preempt, negotiations. Rather, both parties should return to negotiations without preconditions as soon as possible," White House spokesman Robert Gibbs said last week.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1140378.html
[Updated on: Wed, 06 January 2010 15:52]
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #115394 is a reply to message #115381 ] |
Sat, 06 February 2010 21:48 |
sh
Messages: 8918
Registered: December 2006
Location: Israel |
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| whodey wrote on Sat, 06 February 2010 08:19 |
Something new this time, instead of building a Jewish neighborhood on Palestinian land, there is now talk of building a "mixed" neighborhood - but still on Palestinian land.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1147781.html
Mixed neighborhoods are a good idea - but I will feel a lot more confident about Israeli good intentions if such planned mixed neighborhoods are also considered on Israeli land. Otherwise I have to wonder if this is not just an attempt to make it look more "legitimate" for more Jews to live on Palestinian land.
I can also understand why Palestinians would agree to it . Much of the area in question was owned by Christian residents of Bethlehem and a monastery, but the Israeli Ministry of Interior declared it a "green space' ( a trick often used to take land from Palestinians to prevent Palestinian construction on the land. Later - quel surprise - the zoning is changed again and Jewish construction allowed). So the Palestinians probably realize that constructing a mixed neighborhood where some Palestinians can also find housing is preferable to having an all-Jewish neighborhood spring up there in the end.
I am not sure what Nir Barkat would think of that idea ? Isn't he the one who ultimately would have to give approval?
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Nir Barkat will twin the permit, if he grants one, with a price tag of some sort, as he's done with evicting the inhabitants of Beit Yonatan as the Supreme Court has ruled but also demolishing a couple of hundred other houses in Silwan that were on indefinite hold.
What I found odd about this is the fact that Meir Margalit, who is the only friend the people in East Jerusalem have in the Jerusalem Municipality, is also pro this new mixed zone. I think we need to know more about it.
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #115395 is a reply to message #115394 ] |
Sat, 06 February 2010 21:55 |
sh
Messages: 8918
Registered: December 2006
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This is a BBC report about the excavations in Silwan.
Archaeology and the struggle for Jerusalem
The City of David site attracts archaeology students from across the globe
By Katya Adler
BBC News, Jerusalem
...
The site stretches along and down one of Jerusalem's hills, just outside the Old City.
Hundreds of tourists gather. Most are Jewish people from countries all over the world, like the Schneider family from Los Angeles.
The father, Avshalom, says coming here was a must.
"You feel like you're walking on the same stones our forefathers walked on. This is an important part of my children's Jewish education," he told me.
The Israeli foundation that runs the City of David aims to strengthen the Jewish connection to Jerusalem in modern times by emphasising ancient ties.
In this case, it is to David, King of the Jewish people three millennia ago. Some historians believe this was the site of King David's palace.
But archaeology has become mired in controversy.
Battle for sovereignty
The City of David excavations, with their underground tunnels and ancient pools, centre around the Palestinian district of Silwan. It is in East Jerusalem, which Israel has occupied since its 1967 war.
About 40,000 Palestinians live in Silwan. Some families have been here for generations. They say Israel is digging here less out of archaeological interest but rather to make political claims over land.
Palestinians want East Jerusalem as the capital of their future state. Israel says it intends to keep hold of the whole city.
Please read on:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8480304.stm
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I thought this statistic was worth remembering:
Number of building permits granted to Jews in Jerusalem (2008): 13,941 (about 20% in Arab neighborhoods of occupied East Jerusalem).
Number of building permits granted to East Jerusalem Arabs (to build in Arab neighborhoods only, of course): 400 units.
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWFiles2009.nsf/FilesByRWDocUnid Filename/PSLG-7RMB33-full_report.pdf/$File/full_report.pdf
See also, http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1092430.html
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #115419 is a reply to message #115395 ] |
Tue, 09 February 2010 01:32 |
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| sh wrote on Sat, 06 February 2010 21:55 |
This is a BBC report about the excavations in Silwan.
Archaeology and the struggle for Jerusalem
[img]index.php?t=getfile&id=2951&private=0[/img]
The City of David site attracts archaeology students from across the globe
By Katya Adler
BBC News, Jerusalem
...
The site stretches along and down one of Jerusalem's hills, just outside the Old City.
Hundreds of tourists gather. Most are Jewish people from countries all over the world, like the Schneider family from Los Angeles.
The father, Avshalom, says coming here was a must.
"You feel like you're walking on the same stones our forefathers walked on. This is an important part of my children's Jewish education," he told me.
The Israeli foundation that runs the City of David aims to strengthen the Jewish connection to Jerusalem in modern times by emphasising ancient ties.
In this case, it is to David, King of the Jewish people three millennia ago. Some historians believe this was the site of King David's palace.
But archaeology has become mired in controversy.
Battle for sovereignty
The City of David excavations, with their underground tunnels and ancient pools, centre around the Palestinian district of Silwan. It is in East Jerusalem, which Israel has occupied since its 1967 war.
About 40,000 Palestinians live in Silwan. Some families have been here for generations. They say Israel is digging here less out of archaeological interest but rather to make political claims over land.
Palestinians want East Jerusalem as the capital of their future state. Israel says it intends to keep hold of the whole city.
Please read on:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8480304.stm
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I thought this statistic was worth remembering:
Number of building permits granted to Jews in Jerusalem (2008): 13,941 (about 20% in Arab neighborhoods of occupied East Jerusalem).
Number of building permits granted to East Jerusalem Arabs (to build in Arab neighborhoods only, of course): 400 units.
http://www.reliefweb.int/rw/RWFiles2009.nsf/FilesByRWDocUnid Filename/PSLG-7RMB33-full_report.pdf/$File/full_report.pdf
See also, http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1092430.html
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Those at the end there, are ugly and telling numbers :(
Magnus K.
"The thing that's wrong with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur." -George W. Bush
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #115426 is a reply to message #115419 ] |
Tue, 09 February 2010 13:53 |
sh
Messages: 8918
Registered: December 2006
Location: Israel |
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Yes, they are, Magnus.
There's more news from Silwan today and as usual, it's not good:
Beit Yonatan - named, incidentally, after Jonathan Pollard, not David's buddy or Netanyahu's brother - will, according to Eli Yishai, not be evacuated after all.
He has intervened in the court ruling for it to be evacuated by applying for retroactive authorization to build (it was built without a permit). Since as a Knesset member he has immunity from prosecution, it is possible that an authorization will eventually come through for the whole building to stay as is, or that they'll have to knock off a couple of floors. In any case, the police were not sent in to evict the residents yesterday as originally ruled, and for the moment, the whole business is on hold again.
If, however, Yishai does not succeed in getting the retroactive permit, in principle Mayor Barkat is obliged to carry out the ruling.
They are making a laughing stock of the supreme court. And that has consequences in the population's attitude towards judges and lethally undermines people's faith in justice. Yesterday a judge's car was burned, last week a judge got a shoe in her face while ruling a case....
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #115443 is a reply to message #115426 ] |
Wed, 10 February 2010 09:26 |
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| sh wrote on Tue, 09 February 2010 13:53 |
Beit Yonatan - named, incidentally, after Jonathan Pollard, not David's buddy or Netanyahu's brother - will, according to Eli Yishai, not be evacuated after all.
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Presumably this was intended to offend some American President or all of the American people. It sure offends me. Sheesh, Jonathan Pollard?
Is there a way to revoke Yishai's passport or US Visa somewhere in the middle of a flight to the US and declare him PNG'd to boot? I wonder if State has considered that.
Geez, Lieberman and his deputy are starting to rub off on me.
[Updated on: Wed, 10 February 2010 09:28]
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent - Isaac Asimov
Mark of Lewiston
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #115709 is a reply to message #110430 ] |
Thu, 18 February 2010 12:43 |
whodey
Messages: 5179
Registered: December 2006 |
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And the saga continues:
"
Last update - 05:59 18/02/2010
Jerusalem to turn Sheikh Jarrah land into parking lot near Jewish tomb
By Nir Hasson, Haaretz Correspondent
The Jerusalem municipality will appropriate a plot of land in East Jerusalem's Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood to build a public parking lot near the tomb of a Second Temple-era high priest, despite arguments that the move is intended to benefit Jewish pilgrims and expand the Jewish presence in East Jerusalem.
The plan is the brainchild of city council member Yair Gabbay, who said a parking lot is required for visitors to the tomb of Simon the Just, or Shimon Hatzadik.
"There are days when thousands of people come to the tomb, and safety and security issues complicate their visit," Gabbay said. "This tomb was there long before the Arabs arrived - there is no dispute among archaeologists about that."
The municipality is not expected to offer financial compensation to the owner of the plot in question, even though it previously required a Palestinian company seeking to build a hotel in the area to pay for the right to build there.
Neighborhood residents and non-governmental organizations maintain parking is not limited in Sheikh Jarrah, and say the lot is intended to benefit Jewish visitors alone.
Both the municipality and Gabbay, who said he hopes the parking lot will be built within two months, maintain there is a parking shortage and that the lot will benefit Arabs as well as Jews.
"All those who live there, both Arabs and Jews, lack proper parking," said Gabbay. "We'll build a lot for everyone's use - no one will be asked to identify himself upon entering."
The Jerusalem municipality said in a statement that parking, not politics, was behind the move.
"The lot will be designated as a public space," the municipality said. "The municipality recently built a parking lot in the neighborhood of Silwan in response to a request from the neighborhood committee. The lot [in Sheikh Jarrah] is designated for the benefit of neighborhood residents given the shortage of parking in the area, and there are no political motives involved in the matter." But Meir Margalit of the city's Meretz party said the proposal was meant to create an impression of Jewish contiguity in East Jerusalem.
"It's enough that the area is transferred to Jewish ownership, that there is a municipality sticker and an information booth, and that will create the visual and emotional impression that there is Jewish contiguity in the area," he said.
"To claim there is a parking problem in Sheikh Jarrah is ridiculous, an insult to one's intelligence," said Margalit. "There is no parking problem in the area. There is no denying that the move is politically motivated."
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #115872 is a reply to message #115709 ] |
Mon, 22 February 2010 03:45 |
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| whodey wrote on Thu, 18 February 2010 12:43 |
And the saga continues:
"
Last update - 05:59 18/02/2010
Jerusalem to turn Sheikh Jarrah land into parking lot near Jewish tomb
By Nir Hasson, Haaretz Correspondent
The Jerusalem municipality will appropriate a plot of land in East Jerusalem's Sheikh Jarrah neighborhood to build a public parking lot near the tomb of a Second Temple-era high priest, despite arguments that the move is intended to benefit Jewish pilgrims and expand the Jewish presence in East Jerusalem.
The plan is the brainchild of city council member Yair Gabbay, who said a parking lot is required for visitors to the tomb of Simon the Just, or Shimon Hatzadik.
"There are days when thousands of people come to the tomb, and safety and security issues complicate their visit," Gabbay said. "This tomb was there long before the Arabs arrived - there is no dispute among archaeologists about that."
The municipality is not expected to offer financial compensation to the owner of the plot in question, even though it previously required a Palestinian company seeking to build a hotel in the area to pay for the right to build there.
Neighborhood residents and non-governmental organizations maintain parking is not limited in Sheikh Jarrah, and say the lot is intended to benefit Jewish visitors alone.
Both the municipality and Gabbay, who said he hopes the parking lot will be built within two months, maintain there is a parking shortage and that the lot will benefit Arabs as well as Jews.
"All those who live there, both Arabs and Jews, lack proper parking," said Gabbay. "We'll build a lot for everyone's use - no one will be asked to identify himself upon entering."
The Jerusalem municipality said in a statement that parking, not politics, was behind the move.
"The lot will be designated as a public space," the municipality said. "The municipality recently built a parking lot in the neighborhood of Silwan in response to a request from the neighborhood committee. The lot [in Sheikh Jarrah] is designated for the benefit of neighborhood residents given the shortage of parking in the area, and there are no political motives involved in the matter." But Meir Margalit of the city's Meretz party said the proposal was meant to create an impression of Jewish contiguity in East Jerusalem.
"It's enough that the area is transferred to Jewish ownership, that there is a municipality sticker and an information booth, and that will create the visual and emotional impression that there is Jewish contiguity in the area," he said.
"To claim there is a parking problem in Sheikh Jarrah is ridiculous, an insult to one's intelligence," said Margalit. "There is no parking problem in the area. There is no denying that the move is politically motivated."
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There is nothing "Saga" in this, so I some what object to the use of that word in this context. No big deal. Sure, but...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saga
This is "saga":
24. HARALD OPPOSES CHRISTIANITY.
The Emperor Otta (Otto) was at that time in the Saxon country,
and sent a message to King Harald, the Danish king, that he must
take on the true faith and be baptized, he and all his people
whom he ruled; "otherwise," says the emperor, "we will march
against him with an army." The Danish king ordered the land
defence to be fitted out, Danavirke (1) (the Danish wall) to be
well fortified, and his ships of war rigged out. He sent a
message also to Earl Hakon in Norway to come to him early in
spring, and with as many men as he could possibly raise. In
spring (A.D. 975) Earl Hakon levied an army over the whole
country which was very numerous, and with it he sailed to meet
the Danish king. The king received him in the most honourable
manner. Many other chiefs also joined the Danish king with their
men, so that he had gathered a very large army.
ENDNOTES:
(1) Danavirke. The Danish work was a wall of earth, stones, and
wood, with a deep ditch in front, and a castle at every
hundred fathoms, between the rivers Eider and Slien,
constructed by Harald Blatand (Bluetooth) to oppose the
progress of Charlemagne. Some traces of it still exist.
-- L.
Sagas are also usually poetic and filled with heroism, which was the entire point with sagas anyway:
26. OTTA AND HAKON IN BATTLE.
The Emperor Otta assembled a great army from Saxland, Frakland,
Frisland, and Vindland. King Burizleif followed him with a large
army, and in it was his son-in-law, Olaf Trygvason. The emperor
had a great body of horsemen, and still greater of foot people,
and a great army from Holstein. Harald, the Danish king, sent
Earl Hakon with the army of Northmen that followed him southwards
to Danavirke, to defend his kingdom on that side. So it is told
in the "Vellekla": --
"Over the foaming salt sea spray
The Norse sea-horses took their way,
Racing across the ocean-plain
Southwards to Denmark's green domain.
The gallant chief of Hordaland
Sat at the helm with steady hand,
In casque and shield, his men to bring
From Dovre to his friend the king.
He steered his war-ships o'er the wave
To help the Danish king to save
Mordalf, who, with a gallant band
Was hastening from the Jutes' wild land,
Across the forest frontier rude,
With toil and pain through the thick wood.
Glad was the Danish king, I trow,
When he saw Hakon's galley's prow.
The monarch straightway gave command
To Hakon, with a steel-clad band,
To man the Dane-work's rampart stout,
And keep the foreign foemen out."
The Emperor Otta came with his army from the south to Danavirke,
but Earl Hakon defended the rampart with his men. The Dane-work
(Danavirke) was constructed in this way: -- Two fjords run into
the land, one on each side; and in the farthest bight of these
fjords the Danes had made a great wall of stone, turf, and
timber, and dug a deep and broad ditch in front of it, and had
also built a castle over each gate of it. There was a hard
battle there, of which the "Vellekla" speaks: --
"Thick the storm of arrows flew,
Loud was the din, black was the view
Of close array of shield and spear
Of Vind, and Frank, and Saxon there.
But little recked our gallant men;
And loud the cry might be heard then
Of Norway's brave sea-roving son --
'On 'gainst the foe! On! Lead us on!"
Earl Hakon drew up his people in ranks upon all the gate-towers
of the wall, but the greater part of them he kept marching along
the wall to make a defence wheresoever an attack was threatened.
Many of the emperor's people fell without making any impression
on the fortification, so the emperor turned back without farther
attempt at an assault on it. So it is said in the "Vellekla": --
"They who the eagle's feast provide
In ranked line fought side by side,
'Gainst lines of war-men under shields\
Close packed together on the fields,
Earl Hakon drive by daring deeds
The Saxons to their ocean-steeds;
And the young hero saves from fall
The Danavirke -- the people's wall."
After this battle Earl Hakon went back to his ships, and intended
to sail home to Norway; but he did not get a favourable wind, and
lay for some time outside at Limafjord.
I just wonder in what part of the petty theft of neighbourhoods can be found anything like a "saga".
And now, back to sleep-work-olympics-food-olympics-food-work-sleep...
[Updated on: Mon, 22 February 2010 03:54]
Magnus K.
"The thing that's wrong with the French is that they don't have a word for entrepreneur." -George W. Bush
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #115874 is a reply to message #115872 ] |
Mon, 22 February 2010 06:19 |
whodey
Messages: 5179
Registered: December 2006 |
Member |
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| Einherjar wrote on Mon, 22 February 2010 03:45 |
There is nothing "Saga" in this, so I some what object to the use of that word in this context. No big deal. Sure, but...
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Sagas:
The texts are epic tales in prose, often with stanzas or whole poems in alliterative verse embedded in the text, of heroic deeds of days long gone, tales of worthy men, who were often Vikings, sometimes Pagan, sometimes Christian. The tales are usually realistic, except legendary sagas, sagas of saints, sagas of bishops and translated or recomposed romances. They are sometimes romanticised and fantastic, but always dealing with human beings one can understand.
You are right, the petty theft of neighborhoods can indeed not be compared to a "saga". Sorry, just a figure of speech, which I will use more wisely in the future.  No intention to insult Nordic sensibilities at all.....
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| Re: United Jerusalem [message #116154 is a reply to message #110430 ] |
Sun, 07 March 2010 07:48 |
whodey
Messages: 5179
Registered: December 2006 |
Member |
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Once justice dwelled in Jerusalem, now settlers do
By Avraham Burg
Greater, unified Jerusalem is being torn apart. The Israeli - Jewish and Arab - capital is becoming the capital of the hallucinatory, dangerous fanatics. This is not the city of all its residents nor the capital of all its citizens. It is a sad city that belongs to its settlers, its ultra-Orthodox, its violent residents and its messiahs.
The prophet asked, "How is the faithful city become a harlot! She that was full of justice, righteousness lodged in her, but now murderers" (Isaiah 1: 21). We haven't had murders here yet, but the nation's soul is dying here every day before our very eyes. The Israeli spirit of justice is being run roughshod by politicians, settlers and judges. The national soul is being slain with red tape and bureaucratic indifference.
Yes, the capital of the Jewish people - the people that always swore not to do to others what it would not have done to it - has become a harlot. Morally wanton, emotionally sealed-off. It is manipulated by its shepherds for their benefit and is full of law - everyone is suing everyone else, hiding behind the laws of injustice. And the judges - as though forced - issue rulings in accordance with discriminatory laws, unique to the "chosen people." Once justice dwelled here. Now the settlers do, murderers of the nation's soul.
And no one utters a word, but for a few patriots. People of truth and morals who refuse to stand idly by while the state of Jewish refugees repeatedly throws Palestinian families into the street and hands their miserable homes over to bearded, blaspheming thugs.
These people of integrity are the leftists of Jerusalem, who have been through countless clashes with the "Jerusalem syndrome" loonies. They know only too well the city's ugly truth, its terrible teens, and will no longer look the other way. They are committed to stopping with their body the torch-bearing brutes who seek to set it on fire.
No one leads the city now, nor will salvation for it come from the country's elected leader. Sheikh Jarrah is beyond the cognizance of Mayor Nir Barkat and Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, as though the commotion has nothing to do with them, as though it is happening in Sudan or Tehran. And in the absence of leadership of the state, and the peace bloc, our children have taken on the responsibility, shaken off indifference and despair and brought us here. The circle is expanding and it is full of life, rage and hope. Israeli humanism has been reborn in East Jerusalem. We are there in the summer heat and the winter rains, shouting and calling on others to gather round, seeking both Shabbat and peace. We will not recoil from violent police officers or hotheaded harassers. We stand and pledge: We shall not be silent when Ahmad and Aysha are sleeping in the street outside their home, which has become the settlers' domain. Is that justice? Not ours! Is that law? No, it is iniquity.
Jerusalem is emptying out faster than any city in the world. At first its wealthy residents left, then its moderates abandoned ship, followed by the secular and the young adults. Very soon there will be no one left to leave and the city will be completely alone. The sources of light are being extinguished, occluded by rays of darkness.
How long, Mr. Prime Minister and Mr. Mayor? And why do you, judges of Israel, cooperate with the evil that threatens to destroy us? Come with us, return to the Judaism of "Thou shalt not steal" and "Thou shalt not murder." Leave Sheikh Jarrah now!
Anyone know how the demonstration went yesterday evening? Can't find anything in today's Haaretz
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