Home » Current and Ongoing Discussions » The Middle East » 1948
| Re: 1948 [message #118986 is a reply to message #118980 ] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 11:37   |
 Davebt 
Messages: 197
Registered: June 2010 |
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| Walid wrote on Thu, 29 July 2010 11:03 |
Back to the business of the Arab Liberation Army that to you appeared as a Rosetta Stone. Reading beyond their being to fight Jews in Palestine, the article on them says that there numbers did not surpass 3500 and they were comprised of volunteers from various Arab countries and probably financed by the Arab League. Also mentioned in the article about them that surely didn't register with you, was that the prime vocation of this army of volunteers was to short-circuit King Abdallah of Jordan's plan to take over Palestine in his never-ending quest for a Greater Syria (he had already made a side-deal for this with the Zionists that would have given him the WB)and by achieving this, he would lord it over all the Arabs, which was not acceptable to them. But maybe this is getting a bit too deep into Arab politics for your needs of understanding that this small mini-army of irregulars that terrorized Jews was nothing very determining in the overall conflict. But you are free to keep hanging on to it, of course, and to repeat it to those that would listen.
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Not bad for someone who a couple of days ago seemed to not know of its existence. Now armed with the complete knowledge gained from skimming the wiki article you feel qualified to dismiss them as of having no relevance. Forgetting there was more than one roaming palestine, as well as their intent...these kind of comments (as linked yesterday)
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Having recruited a few thousand volunteers, al-Husayni organized the blockade of the 100,000 Jewish residents of Jerusalem.[43] To counter this, the Yishuv authorities tried to supply the city with convoys of up to 100 armoured vehicles, but the operation became more and more impractical and more and more died in this process. By March, Al-Hussayni's tactic had paid off. Almost the entirety of Haganah's armoured vehicles had been destroyed, the blockade was in full operation, and hundreds of the Haganah members who tried to bring supplies to the city were killed.[44] The situation for those who dwelt in the Jewish settlements in the highly isolated Negev and northern Galilee was even more critical.
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seem to be irrelevant to you. This thing of nothingness, this internal arab affair had somehow managed to destroy the Haganah's armoured vehicles and killed hundreds of its men. Tell you what, I bet if the jews needed to open the roads and ensure this violence could not break its supply lines, I bet you'd turn that into an act of aggression. oh I forgot - you've already done that.
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| Re: 1948 [message #118987 is a reply to message #118896 ] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 12:22 |
Kibbutznik 
Messages: 127
Registered: July 2010 |
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Definition of Transparency
Transparency is a general quality. It is implemented by a set of policies, practices and procedures that allow citizens to have accessibility, usability, informativeness, understandability and auditability of information and process held by centers of authority (society or organizations). Feedback mechanisms are necessary to fulfill the goal of transparency.
Transparency has been, for long, a general requirement for democratic societies. The right to be informed and to have access to the information has been an important issue on modern societies.
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From today's Haaretz :
A state afraid of its past
Haaretz Editorial
About two weeks ago, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu signed regulations restricting access to government archives. As Barak Ravid revealed yesterday in Haaretz, 50-year-old materials that were to be opened to the public for historical study will now remain classified for two more decades.
The decision was preceded by intense pressure from the defense establishment and intelligence services on the state archivist, Prof. Yehoshua Freundlich. The archivist accepted their position, and said "these materials are not fit for public viewing."
The information that remains classified deals, among other things, with the expulsions and massacres of Arabs in the War of Independence, Mossad operations in foreign countries, surveillance of opposition politicians by the Shin Bet security service in the 1950s and the establishment of the Biological Research Institute in Nes Tziona and the Nuclear Research Center in Dimona.
The material was not accessible to the public previously, and the new regulations merely put a retroactive stamp of legality on the closure of the archives, which until now was sealed illegally. The state archivist warned that some of the classified materials "has implications over [Israel's] adherence to international law."
His words suggest that the state will be seen as an outlaw if the past deeds of the security and intelligence services are made public. But his explanations are not reasonable. Israel, which this year celebrated its 62nd birthday, can and must confront the less than heroic chapters in its past and reveal them to the public and for historical study. The public has a right to know about the decisions made by the state's founders, even if they involved violations of human rights, covering up crimes or harassing political opponents by security means. The country is mature and strong enough to absorb the criticism that could arise if, for example, previously unpublished testimonies are discovered about the events at Deir Yassin.
The role of the security establishment and intelligence services is to protect the state in the present, not to hide the past. The new regulations, prepared in response to petitions by journalists to the High Court of Justice, reverse the trend of openness set in the Freedom of Information Law, which the Supreme Court called "a guiding law." Israelis should study history as it happened and as it was documented, not just a censored and prettified version.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/a-state-afraid- of-its-past-1.304711
"Zionism has 70 faces, and each of us has the right to chose the face he prefers. If the face of Zionism resembles that of Im Tirtzu and its funders, we should consider a face transplant...then we will be post-post-Zionists. "
~ Yossi Sarid.
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| Re: 1948 [message #118991 is a reply to message #118990 ] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 17:20 |
Walid 
Messages: 14089
Registered: October 2006 |
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When we mention Zionist transfer policies and plans, Jews go into shock at the absurdity of such a concept being advanced since they don't believe Zionists are capable of such vile intententions. Here is something for them to think about the next time they hear of Zionists transfer plans; the Zionist All-Stars team of transfer policies with memorable quotes in blue:
The Concept of Transfer
With Palestinian riots erupting in 1936, Britain decided to dispatch a commission to investigate the causes for the riots and the clashes taking place between Jews and Arabs. The Royal Commission, known as the Royal (Peel) Commission arrived in Palestine in November of that year led by William W Peel, 1st Earl Peel (1867-1937). It interviewed Zionist and Arab leaders before it made its recommendations suggesting in a nut shell that "sooner or later, there should be a transfer of land and, as far as possible, an exchange of population".
The Commission's recommendations were seen as the first official indication of a plan to partition Palestine and to transfer its population, an idea credited to one of the Peel Commission members, Reginald Couplan, who was considered Zionism's greatest friend on the Royal Commission.
So the transfer concept was slowly tied to the idea of partitioning and became the central core of all Zionist lobbying efforts that followed.
Moshe Shertok (1894-1965), who, like Jabotinsky, was born in the Ukraine, (and later became the 2nd Prime Minister of Israel), was elected as the head of the political department of the Jewish Agency. He was crucial in formulating policies on the question of transfer. In a speech to the Zionist Actions Committee in April 1937, he stated:
"The proposed Jewish state would not be continuous. The frontier line would separate villages from their fields...the Arab reaction would be negative [to the partition idea] because they would loose everything and gain almost nothing...they would loose the richest part of Palestine...the orange plantations, the commercial and industrial centres...most of the coastal areas...and [they] would be driven out into the desert. As for now, we must not forget who would have to exchange the land? Those villagers who live more than others on irrigation, on orange and fruit plantations, in houses built near water wells and pumping stations, on livestock and property and easy access to markets. Where would they go? What would they receive in return? This would be such an uprooting, such a shock the likes of which had never occurred before and could drown the whole thing in rivers of blood".
This 70-year old speech, could have been made today as it would reflect exactly what is happening to the Palestinian territories now. The fear amongst the Palestinian people was that the Peel Commission was taking one step towards turning the Balfour Declaration of a 'Jewish National Home' into a Jewish State.
Although Ben-Gurion admitted that he could forsee enormous difficulties "in uprooting by foreign force some 100,000 Arabs from the villages in Galilee which they have inhabited for hundreds of years", he was, nevertheless, determined that "we must be prepared to carry out the transfer...we must expel Arabs and take their place, and if we have to use force...the we have force at our disposal...Our strength will exceed theirs [the Arabs] and we will be better organised and equipped because behind us still stands...the whole younger generation of Jews from Europe and America".
This is from a terrorist who became the first Prime Minister of Israel.
Eliezer Kaplan (1891-1952), born in Minsk, Belurussia, was appointed head of the Finance and Administrative Department of the Jewish Executive (and later became the Finance Minister in Ben-Gurion government). He declared that "the question here is not one of expulsion, but of organised transfer from Jewish territories to another place".
Other Zionist leaders were even worried that such a transfer to neighbouring countries would actually jeopardize future expansion of the Jewish state [into these neighbouring countries]!
One of the leaders of the Mapai Party, Yosef Baratz (1890-1968), born in the Ukraine but moved to Palestine against his parents' wishes, was initially doubtful whether it would be possible to transfer 300,000 Palestinian Arabs. Yet, he confidently remembered that: "...dind't we transfer Arabs from D'Aganiya [the first Zionist communal settlement in Palestine where he lived and married] , Kenert, Merhavya and Mishmar Haemek? I remember the nights on which Shmuel Dayan [Moshe Dayan's father] and I were called to help Hashomer [a Zionist terrorist organization] carry out Arab evacuation. What was the sin in that?".
Years later, Moshe Dayan (1915-1981) was born in a kibbutz to Jewish immigrants from the Ukraine. He later became Israel's defense minister between 1953-1958. He spoke of the effect of the Zionist transfer policy on the Palestinian landscape [as quoted in Haaretz in April 1969]: Jewish villages were built in the place of Arab villages [in Palestine]. You do not even know the names of these Arab villages, and I do not blame you because geography books no longer exist; not only do the books not exist, the Arab villages are not either. Nahlal [Dayan's own settlement] arose in the place of Mahlool; Kibbutz Gvat in the place of Jibta; Kibbutz Sarid in the place of Huneifis; Kefar Yehushu'a in the place of Tal Al-Shuman. There is not one single place in this country [Israel] that did not have a former Arab population".
The records of the Protocol of the 20th Zionist Congress on 9 August 1937, show that the idea of transfer was heavily debated: "in Dr Weizman's opinion, it would be possible to transfer100,000 Palestinians in 20 years, i.e., 5,000 per year. He [Weizmann] told of a plan to set up a fund for a large [Arab] re-settlement. The Jews will contribute to this the amount of1 million Palestinian pounds, and another 2 million pounds will be given...from the savings of the Mandatory treasury".
Menachem Ussishkin (1863-1941), born in Imperial Russia and elected chairman of the powerful and influential Jewish National Fund, advocated the transfer of Palestinians not only to Transjordan, but to Iraq [the farther the better, he apparently thought]: "the Arab people in Palestine have immense areas of land at their disposal. Our people have nothing. We demand that our inheritance, Palestine, be returned to us".
Another character, Dr Selig Soskin (1872-1959), Director of the Land Settlement Department of the Jewish National Fund, had extensive knowledge of land issues and means of transferring people form one place to another. He advocated the idea of total transfer of Palestinians as a condition for the establishment of a Jewish state. With the help of the Land Fund set up to purchase Arab land, he argued that the transfer must be carried out with the greatest speed possible: "The transferring of the Arabs by such numbers in a long period shall not have the desired effect of freeing the country from the heavy burden of a second class citizen and from cheap producers. Besides, the small numbers suggested by the Peel Commission will be made up by the natural increase in numbers through their economic development under Jewish rule". He estimated that 40,000 Palestinian families or 250,000 Palestinian Arabs will have to be transferred from the proposed Jewish state. The cost of this transfer, he estimated, would be about £P200 per Arab family.
[Updated on: Thu, 29 July 2010 17:23]
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| Re: 1948 [message #118992 is a reply to message #118990 ] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 18:18 |
Kibbutznik
Messages: 127
Registered: July 2010 |
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| Walid wrote on Thu, 29 July 2010 15:34 |
Kibbutznik, I'm not one to tell Jews what to do with their Zionism but when I see them all the time saying they disagree with Zionism's expansionist policies, that they are against the occupationand they still insist on claiming to be Zionists in spite of these contradictions, I can only conclude that Zionism is a cult and Zionists are cultists. No other way to explain the contradiction. At one point here, I asked a member if she received contradicting orders on things from her rabbinical guru and her Zionists one, which one would she obey. She said that her Zionism would overrule her Judaism. Now if this isn't cultish, I don't know what it is.
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I don't have a " rabbinical guru " or a " Zionists one " I do have this :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDKMOMyNN00
We are the future Walid .
"Zionism has 70 faces, and each of us has the right to chose the face he prefers. If the face of Zionism resembles that of Im Tirtzu and its funders, we should consider a face transplant...then we will be post-post-Zionists. "
~ Yossi Sarid.
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| Re: 1948 [message #118993 is a reply to message #118896 ] |
Thu, 29 July 2010 19:55 |
Davebt
Messages: 197
Registered: June 2010 |
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Message by Kibbutznik is ignored [reveal message] [reveal all messages by Kibbutznik] [stop ignoring this user]
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Oh my. Walid has now mentioned the Liberty. In a thread about 1948. Perhaps in return I should mention airplane hijackings, olympic massacres or any of the other myriad of violent acts the Palestinians committed, possibly committed or didn't commit that are completely irrelevant both to finding a solution to the conflict and to a disucssion of 1948. It makes for good reading though doesn't it, endless spam content designed not to encourage debate and discussion but destroy it. It seems that with some posters here it is a well practised art.
Following this pointless recall of the liberty incident, Walid has then gone into total escapism mode hiding behind a pretend Israeli poster who cannot speak hebrew. Come on Walid, get a grip, Israeli / kibbutznik gets on great with you and can't speak hebrew how many Israelis do you think fit that description?
Walid. I answered your points, one by one, and you have simply gone off to spout rhetoric and talk to yourself and some weird poster that pretends to be Israeli yet sides with anyone who delegitimizes the state. Lets face it you are not about two states for two people, how on earth does his supposed kibbutz fit into your plans when it is built in part on an arab village? When you are ready to stop playing with the troll and to get back into debating the issues, please let me know.
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Israel came into being illegitimately
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In your dreams. Israel came into being following international mandates and directives and it was born into war because of its own desires, civil strife in palestine and national arab rejectionism. The deligitimization of Israel has been the rejectionist goal since well forever and it has as much chance of working now as it did in 48. It is time to move on, get a grip, and deal with the Palestinian issue. Dealing only with your clear dislike of Israel leaves the Palestinians without a state for another sixty years.
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and mostly everything about it, especially its history, is very counterfeit
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This coming from a poster who yesterday couldn't find reference to the 1000's of irregulars wandering around palestine and today cast them aside as being an internal arab affair. An 'internal arab affiar' I must add that completely decimated the haganah armoured division and killed hundreds of its men!!!
Which reminds me. you never did explain why you accept violence as a response to the embargo placed on gaza in 2009 but not to the embargo the arabs placed around jewish areas in jerusalem in 1948. It wouldn't have anything to do with the victims religion by any chance would it?
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I see them all the time saying they disagree with Zionism's expansionist policies, that they are against the occupationand they still insist on claiming to be Zionists in spite of these contradictions,
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There is absolutely no contradiciton in my zionism and you seem to have problems digesting anything that is not simply black or white. Israel exists, it is not going anywhere. It is time for it to move on and deal with its neighborhood. I am against its expansionist policies (you know, like the ones that pulled out of southern lebanon and withdrew from sinai) and find the occupation of another people totally unnacceptable. There is no contradiction here, much as you'd like there to be. In your politics Israel is the zionist state and zionism cannot negotitate. When that wall begins to crack because in truth zionism can negotiate you find yourself on uncertain ground. Like I said before you prefer discussing things with true zionist believers of the myth. You feel more comfortable with it.
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I can only conclude that Zionism is a cult and Zionists are cultists
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zzzzz. And the Arab rejectionist brigade that has allowed the palestinian issue to fester is a sensible and reasonable network of fair minded people with no bias. Hurl your abuse at those that defend the myths. you keeep missing me every time.
[Updated on: Thu, 29 July 2010 20:07]
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| Re: 1948 [message #119000 is a reply to message #118896 ] |
Fri, 30 July 2010 05:58 |
Kibbutznik
Messages: 127
Registered: July 2010 |
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As far as Isreaeli/Kibbutznik is concerned, she's a bona fide Israeli still living on one of the few remaining kibbutzes with a son that served in the IDF while you are in the UK is doing your Jewish thing by remote control from the UK. She is living in Israel, paying her dues and trying to change the route towards self-destruction that Israel is on. She simply doesn't subscribe to your Zionist cult and for that, she is being attacked. There must be some truth to the saying that there are semilarities between Zionists and fascists; at least Albert Einstein thought so and he was no dummy.
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Thank you Walid , I would like to take this opportunity to invite you and whodey to my home where you can confirm all of the above for yourselves , one day it will be possible and I look forward to that day.
A few corrections if you don't mind , all of my family have served in the IDF not just my youngest and he is in the middle of four and a half years, so he is still serving Walid .
As to the Hebrew , many Diaspora Jews go to Hebrew school in the evenings as children, they don't need to have learned it while living here .
There is nothing wrong with my Hebrew but there is something very wrong with this new poster .
"Zionism has 70 faces, and each of us has the right to chose the face he prefers. If the face of Zionism resembles that of Im Tirtzu and its funders, we should consider a face transplant...then we will be post-post-Zionists. "
~ Yossi Sarid.
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| Re: 1948 [message #119002 is a reply to message #119001 ] |
Fri, 30 July 2010 07:58 |
Walid
Messages: 14089
Registered: October 2006 |
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Peace Seeker, I sympathise with your situation; you are trying to lend some legitimacy to an illegitimate cause and can't be faulted for it because I can sense your good intentions through all the chatter. I got the same sinking feelings as you are now probably having at reading all these quotes by Jewish leaders that show Zionism's true colours and I always felt it whenever I heard that another plane had been hijacked or that a suicide bomber had struck and killed innocent civilians at a pizza parlor, at Lod, at a bus stop, or that huge family gathering for a religious meal at a restaurant. It was wrong, it was awful and it was criminal as far as I was concerned but contrary to you, my reaction to them was not to grasp at some awful episode of history like a massacre at Deir Yassin, or elsewhere to make myself feel less shitty about what had happened. Bad is bad no matter how much you try to equate or compare it to another bad. When you'll start looking at bad in the absolute sense, you'll have started shedding some of the Zionism that you are worshipping; the truth shall set you free, as J-C said in so many other words.
[Updated on: Fri, 30 July 2010 08:02]
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| Re: 1948 [message #119009 is a reply to message #119002 ] |
Fri, 30 July 2010 08:59 |
Davebt
Messages: 197
Registered: June 2010 |
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| Walid wrote on Fri, 30 July 2010 07:58 |
Peace Seeker, I sympathise with your situation; you are trying to lend some legitimacy to an illegitimate cause and can't be faulted for it because I can sense your good intentions through all the chatter. I got the same sinking feelings as you are now probably having at reading all these quotes by Jewish leaders that show Zionism's true colours and I always felt it whenever I heard that another plane had been hijacked or that a suicide bomber had struck and killed innocent civilians at a pizza parlor, at Lod, at a bus stop, or that huge family gathering for a religious meal at a restaurant. It was wrong, it was awful and it was criminal as far as I was concerned but contrary to you, my reaction to them was not to grasp at some awful episode of history like a massacre at Deir Yassin, or elsewhere to make myself feel less shitty about what had happened. Bad is bad no matter how much you try to equate or compare it to another bad. When you'll start looking at bad in the absolute sense, you'll have started shedding some of the Zionism that you are worshipping; the truth shall set you free, as J-C said in so many other words.
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Walid, I sympathise with your situation; you are trying to lend some legitimacy to an illegitimate cause and can't be faulted for it because I can sense your good intentions through all the chatter. I got the same sinking feelings as you are now probably having at reading about all these actions by Arab leaders that show the rejectionists true colours and I always felt it whenever I heard that another settlement had been enlarged or that a Baruch goldstein had struck and killed innocent civilians at prayer, or Popper at a bus stop. It was wrong, it was awful and it was criminal as far as I was concerned but contrary to you, my reaction to them was not to grasp at some awful episode of history like a massacre at Kfar Etzion, or elsewhere to make myself feel less shitty about what had happened. Bad is bad no matter how much you try to equate or compare it to another bad. When you'll start looking at bad in the absolute sense, you'll have started shedding some of the Rejectionism that you are worshipping; the truth shall set you free, as J-C said in so many other words.
Remember Walid, when you stop playing or simply resorting to worthless rhetoric, you'll find I have been patiently waiting for you.
[Updated on: Fri, 30 July 2010 09:01]
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| Re: 1948 [message #119015 is a reply to message #119013 ] |
Fri, 30 July 2010 14:57 |
Davebt
Messages: 197
Registered: June 2010 |
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| Walid wrote on Fri, 30 July 2010 13:48 |
That was funny, Peace Seeker; Lynn pulled that stunt on me a couple of years back and it was followed up in a meeker manner by Oren and back then as now, other than getting a chuckle out of me, it had a zero effect on the discussion at hand. All of you must be using the same Jewish handbook on addressing distressing posts. I guess those quotes by Ben Gurion cannot be explained away so continue having fun.
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Yes, you have me sussed Walid. I purchased the "zionist book of how to handle debates with online propoganda" from the great british zionist bookshop in chaim cohen street in golders green. I was so absolutely at a loss as to how to respond to the ben gurion quotes,, because lets be honest, you are the first person who has ever used them against me. I seriously fell of my chair and it revised my whole POV on the conflict.
One thing I must add, is that obviously me, Oren and Lynn must come from the same kneck of the woods, oh and of course Sh who you also compared as using similar arguments to me. Maybe its a yiddishe thing (like you suggested yesterday)
Let us get one thing clear, as you continually allude to some zionist master plan I am unaware of, and instead of actually responding to any of my points you simply pretend you have not heard and once again come out and say I must be shocked at your latest revelation.
Point being made:
I am aware that the Jews discussed transfer and carried out transfer in various areas throughout early 1948 and the war that followed. You do not shock me, nor provide me with any new information when you speak of plan dalet, nor of any quotes or half bank 'tranfer commissions'. I would kindly request you take this as an aknowledgement that I accept this (as I stated on my first posts here) and please stop pretending I am someone I am not. I would also add that on the subject of transfer it seems I know more than you do. Not being clouded by the obvious bias distorting your vision, to a degree I would be better at differentiating between the truth, the lie and the reasoning behind some of the actions.
So back to the debate. The arabs revolted, the zionists plotted and both sides went to war. Initially under the eyes of the british and later in all out conflict. And you think a quote or two changes anything? Really? How does a quote from Ben Gurion in 1947 cause the Arab to riot in 1921? or 1929? How did a quote from ben gurion in 1947 cause the arabs to destroy and massacre the people in hebron in 1929?
Oh and please at your leisure can you finally tell me the difference between blockading gaza in 2009 and blockading jerusalem in 1948?
And while you are at it, can you tell me if you were a jewish commander in 1948 needing to solve the problem of the jerusalem blockade destroying your convoys, what you would do?
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| Re: 1948 [message #119017 is a reply to message #119015 ] |
Fri, 30 July 2010 16:09 |
Lynn 
Messages: 3245
Registered: November 2006 |
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| peace_seeker wrote on Fri, 30 July 2010 14:57 |
One thing I must add, is that obviously me, Oren and Lynn must come from the same kneck of the woods, oh and of course Sh who you also compared as using similar arguments to me. Maybe its a yiddishe thing (like you suggested yesterday)
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He forgot to mention Jacob Blues, Peter, Bracha, Margie, Gerald, Iva, Shimon and Gabe. Don't take it personally. Walid understands the thoughts and posts of the people whose names he throws around as well as he understands yours. Which is to say, he's always misrepresenting their viewpoints in their absence. But as I've said before, it's not just him that has the reading comprehension problem, I know that he's been misunderstood by many on the Israeli side back when the forum had more of a diversity of opinions.
If I were able to express myself in a way in which he could comprehend, I'd continue posting to him, but sometime ago, it's gotten to the point where I've stopped learning, and the discussion hasn't advanced (not just with Walid, generally speaking). In fact, it's regressed. You've entered at the regression, which is unfortunate. There are some really good threads in the archives if they're still accessible, I don't know how much they are still available to see.
Sometimes I think that if people continue this debate long enough, the learning curve goes negative after a while. At least, that's been my experience with it. I don't know if it's like this on other ME forums, or if it's just this one.
I will say this, I did learn a lot. I'm glad that I participated for the time that I did, and I care about the people that I've met on the forum and wish them and their families well. It's why I still check in and post pictures of my daughter when I have them.
The optimist says the glass is half full, the pessimist that it is half empty.
The engineer says the container is twice the size it needs to be.
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| Re: 1948 [message #119020 is a reply to message #119017 ] |
Fri, 30 July 2010 17:02 |
Karen
Messages: 3481
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| Lynn wrote on Fri, 30 July 2010 16:09 |
| peace_seeker wrote on Fri, 30 July 2010 14:57 |
One thing I must add, is that obviously me, Oren and Lynn must come from the same kneck of the woods, oh and of course Sh who you also compared as using similar arguments to me. Maybe its a yiddishe thing (like you suggested yesterday)
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He forgot to mention Jacob Blues, Peter, Bracha, Margie, Gerald, Iva, Shimon and Gabe. Don't take it personally. Walid understands the thoughts and posts of the people whose names he throws around as well as he understands yours. Which is to say, he's always misrepresenting their viewpoints in their absence.
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Not necessarily in their absence 
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| Re: 1948 [message #119051 is a reply to message #119017 ] |
Sun, 01 August 2010 09:05 |
Walid
Messages: 14089
Registered: October 2006 |
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| Lynn wrote on Fri, 30 July 2010 16:09 |
... He forgot to mention Jacob Blues, Peter, Bracha, Margie, Gerald, Iva, Shimon and Gabe.
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"He" doesn't forget any of them and this is why he always refers back to them. You forgot to mention Patricia that like Sabashimon and Jacob pop in occasionally to consult the extensive material archived in the Treasure Chest. Saba was here a couple of days back looking up something on the archived June 7, 1967 thread. They have become like ghosts with their lurking in the shadows; they should pop in and send a torpedo or two my way that they surely feel like doing but I guess it's easier for them to go on with the indignant schtick and continue staying away. I even offered Margie, that is still a member here, for us to post at each other's forum but she declined the offer. But the one I miss the most is Peter that I had invited into the forum because of his wealth of information and mastery of English that made him a formidable debater.
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| Re: 1948 [message #119056 is a reply to message #118896 ] |
Sun, 01 August 2010 13:35 |
Kibbutznik
Messages: 127
Registered: July 2010 |
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*UPDATED* IOA Editor: As in 1948, the "Israeli narrative" tries to sweep Israel's ethnic cleansing crimes under the rug. As in 1948, official Israel lied about the fate of the local population during and after the war and so did Israeli historians, as this story reveals....
30 July 2010 / Read More
The Disinherited: Syria's 130,000 Golan Height Refugees
http://www.israeli-occupation.org/2010-07-30/the-disinherite d-syrias-130000-golan-height-refugees/
"Zionism has 70 faces, and each of us has the right to chose the face he prefers. If the face of Zionism resembles that of Im Tirtzu and its funders, we should consider a face transplant...then we will be post-post-Zionists. "
~ Yossi Sarid.
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| Re: 1948 [message #119069 is a reply to message #119031 ] |
Tue, 03 August 2010 11:07 |
Davebt
Messages: 197
Registered: June 2010 |
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This is turning into a trend. Amira, I am new here, so obviously cannot speak of what has happened here in the past, but still I have yet to see any single poster here presently supporting the hasbara line.
As it seems that the guys from Olive once posted here or vice versa, it is possible that such posts are directed at posters like Peter, but given that I do not see a single poster claiming that the Zionists did not commit terror attacks, I am unsure which fire you believe you are stoking.
Here is quite a list of Irgun attacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Irgun_attacks
hardly something easily swept under the carpet. But as nobody seems to be claiming otherwise, I do not see how this in any way disturbs the rather clear historical viewpoint that the two sides were fighting
a, because of Palestinian arab opposition or external arab opposition to Jewish nationlistic intent and continued Jewish immigration
b, because of Jewish intent to build their state and support immigration
I have made it quite clear that I am fully aware of the zionist actions that were removed from their storybook. However I would add that Israel has come a long way since the opening of the archives and everyone who wants to know, can easily find such information. The main papers in Israel have all carried multiple articles and analysis of Israeli terrorist actions, the forced evacuation of arab towns, plan dalet and so on, it is not a hidden secret, nor should anyone pretend they are reinventing the earth when they talk of it.
None of this changes the reality of 1948, nor the build up in the years that preceded it. Because the zionists took out civilians in a market place or zionists civilians were taken out
by arabs, there is little to be gained by one side trying to show their bloody hands were either more worthy, or slightly less bloody. In general the jew will claim his sides actions was responsive, as will the arab of his own sides actions. Fair to say anyone trying to pretend any single action (including plan dalet) was occuring in a vacuum or anyone taking single actions out of the context of a violent and bloody clash of wills is simply spinning their own myths.
What is clear then is that the idea of a passive palestinian population being massacred by a violent zionist one is built on myth no less that the same idea in reverse.
LIST OF ATTACKS, MASSACRES, ATROCITIES *Undoubtedly incomplete*
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Name... Date... Responsible party... Casualties/notes
Tel Hai March 1, 1920 Arabs 8 Jews killed [1]
Nebi Musa riots April 4- April 7, 1920 Arabs 5 Jews, 4 Arabs killed; 216 Jews, 18 Arabs, 7 Britons wounded
Jaffa riots and attacks by Arabs on Rehovot, Petah Tikva, Kfar Sava, Hadera May 1- May 7, 1921 Arabs, British authorities and police 48 Arabs, 45 Jews killed; 140 Jews, 73 Arabs wounded, after May Day clash between Jewish and Arab socialists Arabs attacked to Jewish population[1][2][3][4]
Hebron massacre August 23- August 26, 1929 Arabs 133 Jews, 116 Arabs killed; 339 Jews, 232 Arabs wounded
Safed massacre August 29, 1929 Arabs, British police (stayed passive) 18-20 Jews killed; 80 Jews wounded
Labor Strike Revolt April 15- October 12, 1936 Arabs, Jews, British authorities 138 Arabs, 80 Jews, 33 British killed
1936-1939 Arab revolt in Palestine September 27, 1937 - 1939 Arabs, Jews, British authorities 5,000 Arabs, 415 Jews, several hundred Britons killed
King David Hotel bombing July 22, 1946 Irgun 91 killed, including 41 Arabs, 28 Britons, and 17 Jews; 40-45 wounded
N/A December 13, 1947 Irgun 16 Arabs killed; 67 Arabs wounded from bombings in Jerusalem and Jaffa; Irgun also burns down 100 Arab homes in Jaffa
N/A (See Beit Nabala) December 14, 1947 Arab Legion 13 Jews killed (some sources say 14); 9 Jews, 2 Britons, 1 Arab wounded in attack on military convoy near Lydda
al-Khisas December 18, 1947 Haganah 10 Arabs killed
N/A December 24, 1947 Arab snipers, Jewish militants 4 Jews killed in Haifa by snipers, 4 Arabs killed in reprisals
N/A December 26, 1947 Arab militants 7 Jews killed while driving in convoy to Jerusalem
N/A December 28, 1947 Arab Snipers, Jewish militants 5 Jews killed in Bab el Wad by snipers, 5 Arabs killed in reprisals
N/A December 29, 1947 Arab militants, Irgun 4 Jews killed in Tel Aviv from mortar and sniper fire, 13 Arabs killed in Jerusalem in Irgun bombing
Bomb thrown on Damascus Gate Café in Jerusalem December 29, 1947 Irgun 11 Arabs, 2 Britons killed Uri Milstein reported 15 casualties from the bombing in the Palestine Post.[
Haifa Oil Refinery December 30, 1947 Irgun, Arabs 6 Arabs were killed at the refinery entrance in Haifa in an Irgun bombing, sparking a riot among the workers in which 39 Jews killed
Balad al-Shaykh January 1, 1948 Palmach 17 - 70 Arabs killed in Haifa
N/A January 3, 1948 Arab militants 4 Jews killed in Haifa
N/A January 3, 1948 Arab militants 3 Jews, 1 Briton killed in Jerusalem
Bombing of Arab National Committee HQ January 4, 1948 Stern Gang 14 Arabs killed; 100 Arabs wounded
Semiramis Hotel bombing January 5, 1948 Haganah 20 Arabs killed in Jerusalem
N/A January 5, 1948 Arabs, Jews 4 Arabs killed after attacking Jewish quarter in Safed
Jaffa Gate bombing in Jerusalem January 7, 1948 Irgun 15 - 20 Arabs killed
N/A January 9, 1948 Arab militants 35 Jews killed near Kfar Etzion
N/A January 10, 1948 Arab militants 11 Jews killed, 1 decapitated near Yavne
N/A January 14, 1948 Arab militants 7 Jews, 2 Britons killed in Haifa
N/A January 20, 1948 Arab militants 8 Jews killed in Yehiam
N/A January 22, 1948 Arab militants 7 Jews killed near Yazur
N/A January 25, 1948 Arab militants 10 Jews killed
N/A January 27, 1948 British soldiers 4 Arabs killed in Gaza
N/A Feb 3, 1948 Arab militants 6 Jews killed while riding buses in Haifa
N/A Feb 7, 1948 Arabs, Jews 3 Arabs, 3 Jews killed in Haifa
N/A Feb 8, 1948 Arabs 6 Jews killed in Jerusalem
N/A Feb 8, 1948 Arab militants 3 Jews killed in Tel Aviv
N/A Feb 12, 1948 Arabs 4 Jews killed in Jerusalem
N/A Feb 15, 1948 Arab militants, Jewish militants 5 Arabs, 3 Jews killed
Sa'sa' village ambush in the Safad district February 14, 1948 Palmach 11 Arabs killed
N/A Feb 17, 1948 Arab militants, Jewish militants 5 Arabs, 3 Jews killed
N/A Feb 17, 1948 Arab militants 57 Arabs killed while taking part in attack on Jewish settlements Tirat Tzvi, Sde Eliahu, Ein HaNatziv
Ramla vegetable market bombing 18 February 1948 Irgun 12 killed, 43 wounded
N/A Feb 19, 1948 Arab militants 4 Jews killed while riding buses in Haifa
N/A Feb 21, 1948 Jewish militants 4 Arabs killed in Haifa
Ben Yehuda Street bombing Feb 23, 1948 Arab militants, British deserters 55 Jews killed
N/A Feb 25, 1948 Arab militants 3 Jews killed on road between Ramle and Tel Aviv
N/A Feb 28, 1948 Arab militants 6 Arabs, 1 Jew killed during attack on Jewish village Kfar Sava
N/A Feb 18, 1948 Arab militants 4 Arabs killed while participating in attack on Jewish settlement Mitzpe
Rehovot Train bombing March 1, 1948 Jewish militants 28 Britons killed
Bevingrad Officers Club bombing March 1, 1948 Irgun 20 Britons killed; 30 Britons wounded
N/A March 1, 1948 Arab militants 4 Jews killed on Tel Aviv-Jerusalem road
N/A March 2, 1948 Arab militants 6 Arabs, 3 Jews killed during Arab attack on Tel-Aviv Jerusalem road
N/A March 4, 1948 Arab militants 16 Jews killed on Jerusalem-Atarot road
N/A March 9, 1948 Arab militants 3 Arabs killed while participating in attack on Jewish settlement Yehiam
N/A March 11, 1948 Jews, Arabs 4 Arabs, 1 Jew killed in Tiberius
Jewish Agency bombing March 11, 1948 Arab militants 13 Jews killed
N/A March 14, 1948 Arab militants 7 Jews killed near Faluja
N/A March 14, 1948 Jews, Arabs 4 Arabs, 1 Jew killed in Tiberius
N/A March 18, 1948 Arab militants 5 Britons, 4 Jews killed in convoy near Acre
N/A March 20, 1948 Arabs 7 Jews killed at Ein Harod
N/A March 21, 1948 Arabs 6 Jews killed on Rosh Pinna-Safed road
N/A March 22, 1948 Arab militants 4 Jews, 20 Arabs during attack on Jewish settlement Nitzanim
N/A March 24, 1948 Jewish militants 36 Arabs killed near Tulkarem
N/A March 26, 1948 Arab militants 6 Arabs, 2 Jews killed in attack on Jewish convoy near Gaza
N/A March 28, 1948 Arab militants 6 Arabs killed while participating in attack on Jewish convoy near Rehovot
N/A March 28, 1948 Arab militants 6 Arabs killed while participating in attack on Jewish convoy near Safed
Cairo-Haifa train bombing March 31, 1948 Lehi 40 Arabs killed; 60 Arabs wounded
Massacre in an orange grove in Lydda 1 April 1948 Jewish militias 11 Arab laborers killed
Deir Yassin April 9, 1948 Irgun ~ 100 Arabs killed
Hadassah medical convoy April 13, 1948 Arab militants 78 Jews (nurses, doctors, and patients) killed
Cairo-Haifa Train bombing April 23, 1948 Lehi 8 Britons killed; 27 Britons wounded
Sorona Police Station bombing April 25, 1948 Lehi 4 Britons killed
Ein al Zeitun May 3, 1948 Palmach 37 - 70
Kfar Etzion May 13, 1948 Arab militants and Arab Legion 127-157 Jews killed
Abu Shusha May 14, 1948 Israeli 60
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_massacres_committed_pri or_to_the_1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_war_in_Mandate_Palestine
Now if you wish to sort through that lot and try to spin it that "your side" rather than "my side" were the good guys then be my guest, but I suggest that this idea that you are fighting against jewish hasbara is wrong, and even more warped is the assumption that if you somehow manage to discount some of the hasbara myths, then automatically it means your version is the true account.
It seems like a weak case, and do not understand why you continually stick to it. Was Dresden a war crime? Does the answer to that question change the reality of the 2nd world war? You can bust the other sides myths and still be on the wrong side of truth.
As I am not standing here is support of any ficticious version, but rather in an attempt to gain additional understanding of events, I would like to hear from anyone who has opinions regarding the following.
1. How is it possible to support a story of jewish aggression throughout palestine prior to May 1948, when clearly these attacks were two sided?
2. How is it possible to completely discount palestinian objectionism as being a partial cause of jewish reaction?
3. Is hamas action against the gaza blockade justified? And if so, were the jews justified in acting against the blockade of Jerusalem in 1948?
4. Following the massacres in 1929 in both Safed and Hebron, do you think the zionist approach was wrong in investing in and enlarging the haganah, and if so, what do you think the jews should have done as a response?
5. If you were a zionist in 1947, at the time of partition. How do you think you would have viewed arab intentions and what do you think the Jews should have done in the circumstance?
[Updated on: Tue, 03 August 2010 11:10]
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| Re: 1948 [message #119079 is a reply to message #119078 ] |
Wed, 04 August 2010 10:04 |
Davebt
Messages: 197
Registered: June 2010 |
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| Walid wrote on Wed, 04 August 2010 08:54 |
. I'm tired of arrogant Arabs thinking they had no responsability in having caused this conflict and I'm tired of whining Jews feeling sorry for themselves.
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well luckily I am neither an arab thinking I share no responsbility, nor a whining Jew. So perhaps we can communicate with each other.
It may have slipped your memory but about a week ago you began this thread with the line
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nonetheless, it's still worthwhile to open a thread about what happened in 1948 and after 1948 in light of the myths on which the foundation of Israel has been built
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And being attracted by this, I have been seeking to discuss the matter with you ever since. I have been using forums to further my knowledge of the conflict for 10 years, I am an eager learner and can accept it when I am wrong. Having found someone that neither accepts the zionist myths surrounding 1948, nor accepts the assertion that the whole thing seems to have been an underhand zionist plot, I would have imagined I make a good foil for such a discussion.
However it seems something in this assesment is wrong, because having started this thread, you seem to have little appetite for it and spend your time sniping from the sidelines telling others to semi-ignore my input because apparently it is shrouded in religious myth.... So what's wrong?
[Updated on: Wed, 04 August 2010 10:12]
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| Re: 1948 [message #119082 is a reply to message #118896 ] |
Wed, 04 August 2010 11:21 |
Kibbutznik
Messages: 127
Registered: July 2010 |
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The Partition Plan - 60 Years Later
Palestinian refugees from Ein el-Hilweh camp in Lebanon, expelled in 1948 from their village of Ras El-Akhmad (today the Israeli moshav Kerem Ben Zimra) in the Galilee, visited Rothschild Blvd. in Tel Aviv, commemorating 60 years to the Partition Plan for Palestine. A project by Zochrot ('remembering') bringing the narrative of the naqba to the Israeli public.
http://www.tv.social.org.il/eng/The-Partition-Plan.htm
"Zionism has 70 faces, and each of us has the right to chose the face he prefers. If the face of Zionism resembles that of Im Tirtzu and its funders, we should consider a face transplant...then we will be post-post-Zionists. "
~ Yossi Sarid.
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| Re: 1948 [message #119088 is a reply to message #119083 ] |
Wed, 04 August 2010 12:26 |
Davebt
Messages: 197
Registered: June 2010 |
Member |
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| Walid wrote on Wed, 04 August 2010 12:03 |
The word "myth" stretches beyond the limitations you have set around it. What about my various discussions about the myth that the Jews came in and threw the people off the land whereas some of those Jews had bought some of these lands fair and squarre but the Palestinian landlords having taken the money and screamed foul on their way to Switzerland.
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Sorry Walid, I missed something here, I am not sure what you are trying to say.
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What about those other myths about the expelling of Palestinians to the objections of the brotherly Arabs while part of what happened and not talked about were the negotiations between Arab leaders and Jewish ones to transfer the Palestinian population to Iraq?
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That point is a bit weak. There are Palestinians who have betrayed the cause by spying for Israel. This doesn't in any way weaken the Palestinian case. There are always some people talking to someone or discussing something. You cannot use that to take away from the whole picture. I am sure you'll agree that because some people in Israel are talking about a one state solution and a state for all its citizens, that doesn't indicate it is Israeli policy.
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You had other myths being spread by Jews such as the favourite tear-jerker about the 5 Arab armies having surrounded and attacked Israel from all sides while in reality, the Jews and the Jordanians had a side deal that would keep Jordan out of the fight in exchange of the Jews letting them walk all over and take the WB?
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So you are saying that their were 4 arab armies and not 5? And are you also claiming that because of the agreement the Jordanian legion didn't assulat Kfar Etzion and massacre its inhabitants, or were they simply forgetting for a moment they had struck a deal.
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You have the other myth about the 67 war which was more of the same with more side deals between the Jews and the Arabs on the backs of the Palestinians. Neither Jews nor Arabs want to talk about these because to do so would be admission of sorts that both screwed the Palestinians.
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You could also ask why in the 19 years that the arabs were in control of the Palestinian areas, there had been no movement towards a Palestinian state. Surely more worthy evidence that nobody does anything but screw Palestinians.
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But I'm sure when you hear the word "myth", your brain clicks into a defensive mode because you just want to defend Israel no matter what.
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That doesn't make sense, certainly not in respect to this thread. In fact very little in your post seems to have direction. When you started this thread about 1948 - What did you want to discuss?
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| Re: 1948 [message #119098 is a reply to message #119095 ] |
Wed, 04 August 2010 20:13 |
Davebt
Messages: 197
Registered: June 2010 |
Member |
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| Walid wrote on Wed, 04 August 2010 13:38 |
The point you missed. Palestinians had been selling land to the Jews secretly and later claimed the land was stolen from them by the Jews. You had a repeat of that story last week in Jerusalem with the family that was thrown out of the house. It seems that this family had been renting the building since 75 years but 20 years ago, the grandchildren of the owner of the building sold it to the settler people and now the settlers are claiming it. So it's no longer a simple case of people being thrown out on the street but it goes much beyond that.
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Yes, Jews, Arabs, time and human nature have all screwed the Palestinians. However it is also true they have also screwed themselves.
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About transfer policies that Livni and Lieberman still talk about openly, if you can't get to the point of accepting that Jews have for the past almost 100 years talked about transferring out the Palestinians, then undertaking a discussion about the Arab involvement in it is moot and not worth getting you upset over it.
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In an ideal world Walid, both nations would be the size of the States, there would be an ocean dividing them and this kind of talk would be pointless. There were no jews in the west bank when israel captured it in 1967 because the ethnic cleansing on the arab side was 100% effective. Every single Jew either kicked out, ran away or was murdered - bar none. That I am sure today most Jewish Israelis would prefer less 'hostile' arabs in their neighbourhood should be taken with a pinch of salt given the current climate between the two peoples. We are effectively at war, and this rather important piece of information needs to be taken into consideration when discussing attitudes. Disliking a group you are at war with may not have its roots in racism
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4, 5, 6 Arab armies, what's the difference? My statement was not about the mathematics of it but about the connivance with some of the Arabs and the subsequent Jewish myth that they fought gainst the odds for their survival which has been proven bogus lately.
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This Jewish myth you talk of is quickly being replaced by a myth in reverse. There is a factual number, it is that Israel suffered over 6,000 casualties. Now how you can possible make it look like Israel were not fighting for their survival when they lost 1% of their population in a single conflict is beyond me. The original myth was that Israel was outgunned , outmanned and outmanouvered and like david and goliath by a miracle overcame the arab forces. We now know this is not accurate, and the arabs were not as well prepared as suggested, nor had as many forces, nor working to a rigorous plan nor even working in unison. But this doesn't allow anyboy to suggest Israel was not in a serious conflict by any definition. As I have continually stated, both sides were spinning stories, because one side now has revisionists, does not make the other sides story true. If you think for an instant that the war of independance did not hold grave risks for the state of Israel you are very much mistaken.
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Of course the Arabs did nothing in Gaza or the WB, they just wanted the land for their own expansion and were probably just as annoyed as the Jews of having had to take the Palestinians along with the "captured" lands. The first annexation of Palestinian land was not by Israel but by Jordan of the WB in 1951 against the wishes of the whole of the Arab League and the UN with exception to the UK and Pakistan. Jordan remained in the Arab League's doghouse for 2 years because of it but in the end, the Arabs went along with it and made up with the Jordanians.
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We can agree the Palestinians have been pissed on by everybody. Part of this is Israels fault, part of it the arab nations and part of it the Palestinians themselves. The original arab plan in 1948 was a land grab, it wasn't really about the partition at all - they did not go to war to save the Palestinians, they went to war to gain land.
[Updated on: Wed, 04 August 2010 20:18]
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| Re: 1948 [message #119099 is a reply to message #119098 ] |
Wed, 04 August 2010 21:25 |
Walid
Messages: 14089
Registered: October 2006 |
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I'm against all forms of ethnic cleansing, Arab or Jew, even if it invoved the cleansing of Jews from the WB. From what I read of it, on the Arab side it happened mostly in Egypt in 3 waves. The biggest numbers came from Iraq but these were not all the results of ethnic cleansing and this has been documented at discussed at length here on 2 or 3 threads. The same happened in Yemen and in a few other places. I'm happy to say that I come from a country where this did not happen and the majority of the 20 or 30,000 Jews that did leave, did so and oddly enough, not to Israel, for economic reason and the proof of it is that between 1948 and 1967, almost 20 years, the Jewish population was on the rise while the opposite was happening in every other country with exception to maybe Tunisia that had a relatively stable Jewish population up until independence in 1956 when half took up the French offer to go back with them to France and the other half opted for Israel. If you look up the dates of exodus from Arab countries, you'd see that these didn't happen overnight after the 1948 war.
I'd vote for giving Arab Jews the full right of return or compensation for confiscated properties. Many of the 700,000 or so Jews came to Israel to make their aliyah while of course some came because they had been expelled from Arab countries. The problem is trying to figure which is which; Arabs would tell you they all left voluntarily and were welcome to stay while the Zionists would tell you they were all expelled and had to leave in the middle of the night with the clothes on their backs. Both sides are fudging the numbers.
Did you know about the Beirut synagogue that is being refurbished and that has 2 threads about it on this forum? Also, were you aware that Morocco and Bahrain have Jewish ministers in the government? You hear much more about spooking stories than about these. It wasn't long ago that I asked whatever became of the properties of Jews that had left the country when the civil war broke out that had properties in what was then the poor side of town and that has now become the most expensive part of the city with the properties even in their delapitated conditions worth hundreds of millions of dollars. It seems the Jews had collectively entrusted a lawyer in London to deal on their behalf and we can guess what kind of deals were dealt.
What I'm taking the log road to say is that with some exceptions as I mentioned, the problems between the Arabs and the Jews in Arab countries stemmed from nationalistic movements of pan-Arabism on the Arab side and Zionism on the Jewish side and both were bad medicine. The creation of Israel by the Zionists may have provided a haven for Jews but it did it at a great cost in the relation between Arabs and Jews and the disenfranchising of the Palestinian people. My problem is not with Jews, it's with Zionists.
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| Re: 1948 [message #119117 is a reply to message #119099 ] |
Thu, 05 August 2010 10:12 |
Davebt
Messages: 197
Registered: June 2010 |
Member |
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| Walid wrote on Wed, 04 August 2010 21:25 |
I'm against all forms of ethnic cleansing, Arab or Jew, even if it invoved the cleansing of Jews from the WB. From what I read of it, on the Arab side it happened mostly in Egypt in 3 waves. The biggest numbers came from Iraq but these were not all the results of ethnic cleansing and this has been documented at discussed at length here on 2 or 3 threads. The same happened in Yemen and in a few other places. I'm happy to say that I come from a country where this did not happen and the majority of the 20 or 30,000 Jews that did leave, did so and oddly enough, not to Israel, for economic reason and the proof of it is that between 1948 and 1967, almost 20 years, the Jewish population was on the rise while the opposite was happening in every other country with exception to maybe Tunisia that had a relatively stable Jewish population up until independence in 1956 when half took up the French offer to go back with them to France and the other half opted for Israel. If you look up the dates of exodus from Arab countries, you'd see that these didn't happen overnight after the 1948 war.
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The Jewish refugees is an interesting topic by itself, and I am sure this has been amply discussed on this forum. I'll have a search later maybe to see how that panned out, before simply getting repetative here now.
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I'd vote for giving Arab Jews the full right of return or compensation for confiscated properties. Many of the 700,000 or so Jews came to Israel to make their aliyah while of course some came because they had been expelled from Arab countries. The problem is trying to figure which is which; Arabs would tell you they all left voluntarily and were welcome to stay while the Zionists would tell you they were all expelled and had to leave in the middle of the night with the clothes on their backs. Both sides are fudging the numbers.
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Except as you well know, the jews that left are in the main now happily living in Israel and are part of the state. Their reaction could be comparable with lets say, a ficticious 3rd generation Lebanese who grandparents were once Palestinian, but because of the way the arabs handled the refugees, this comparison doesn't exist. You might have found that had the refugees been absorbed, a teenager from Beirut whose roots lay in Palestine might object to the idea that he should return to the strange land of Tulkarm. History played the card differently and we can only guess at alternative outcomes.
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Did you know about the Beirut synagogue that is being refurbished and that has 2 threads about it on this forum? Also, were you aware that Morocco and Bahrain have Jewish ministers in the government?
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I know some of this, but probably am less aware thn you are.
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You hear much more about spooking stories than about these.
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Always the case. Works both ways as well.
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What I'm taking the log road to say is that with some exceptions as I mentioned, the problems between the Arabs and the Jews in Arab countries stemmed from nationalistic movements of pan-Arabism on the Arab side and Zionism on the Jewish side and both were bad medicine. The creation of Israel by the Zionists may have provided a haven for Jews but it did it at a great cost in the relation between Arabs and Jews and the disenfranchising of the Palestinian people. My problem is not with Jews, it's with Zionists.
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Well Walid, I am still very much a zionist. I do not believe the cost needed to have been as high as it was.
[Updated on: Thu, 05 August 2010 10:13]
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