Home » The Treasure Chest » Israel » Norman Finkelstein's Deportation
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82171 is a reply to message #82170 ] |
Sun, 01 June 2008 07:12   |
 sh 
Messages: 8918
Registered: December 2006
Location: Israel |
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| abunimir wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 09:00 |
People must realize that Israel is NOT what it seems to be,, and it is not like the image the media paint for, and I feel that this is my duty.. because a great deal of the troubles that we have stem from wrong assumptions including that whatever Israel is doing against the Palestinians are actions of self defense.
I can not accept to justify Israel's denial of Entry to many people security fed by fear. This is not accurate.
Generally American citizens who hold American Passports are allowed to Israel through any terminal....
my brother in law, is denied entry ONLY because he is Palestinian-American.
So, how can that be described other than discrimination based on racial ethnic reasons.
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Because if you ask an Israeli who is not a racist (some are and some aren't) why he is suspicious of Palestinians, he will not say or feel or think it's because of their race, but will not be for opening all the doors either.
I accept that the way Israel paints itself for public consumption is not the way it really is, just as a person does not see himself as he really is. America is also not how it portrays itself, unfortunately.
But Israel is a country of its people and they are not all devils. That is why it is best to set aside conveniently sweeping rhetoric and examine with a microscope instead. If there are people on your side and people on our side who can trust each other things will change. But if I am included by you in a large sack called racism I will not recognize even myself let alone you. It's called demonization and it polarizes.
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82173 is a reply to message #82170 ] |
Sun, 01 June 2008 07:27 |
tsedek
Messages: 5184
Registered: May 2007
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| abunimir wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 09:00 |
well,
Thanks for welcoming words
Finkelstein being a non-Palestinian does not mean that his case does not relate to me.
I guess you should investigate more about the hardships Finkeslstein and many others like him are facing because of their opinion regarding Israel.
People must realize that Israel is NOT what it seems to be,, and it is not like the image the media paint for, and I feel that this is my duty.. because a great deal of the troubles that we have stem from wrong assumptions including that whatever Israel is doing against the Palestinians are actions of self defense.
I can not accept to justify Israel's denial of Entry to many people security fed by fear. This is not accurate.
Generally American citizens who hold American Passports are allowed to Israel through any terminal....
my brother in law, is denied entry ONLY because he is Palestinian-American.
So, how can that be described other than discrimination based on racial ethnic reasons.
call it whatever you like,,
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So you think the wrong image is the cause those hundreds of thousands of Palestinians aren't even allowed to travel abroad (and if so probably wouldn't be allowed to return)?
I think that by taking on the wrong issue you face chasing people objecting to the crime of emprisoning other people in a small territory against you in their harnass. They get swept into a rhetoric 'thing' that doesn't have anything to do anymore with the real issue. I'm surprised you don't notice that. When talking 'images' or making 'famous' people having different opinions into the 'representatives' of the core issue we're talking in circles because we miss the point.
And, one other thing: are people having different opinions against governments in the Arab countries allowed entrance? I gave you the example of Feiglin, I can give you the example of every Israeli not being allowed into the Arab countries.... That's not racism? No. It's politics. Just like with this person who finds himself so important that he would have others talk about HIM. If you want your brother to be able to come through the airport as every other human being you must talk about HIM. HE represents an injustice like there are so many. Give names to all those people, set THEM in the spotlight. Don't play willingly along with this political game of being drawn in endless discussion about someone that clearly enjoys from it because he can book it into his list of complaints. He is NOTHING.
[Updated on: Sun, 01 June 2008 07:38]
It Is A Sin To Kill In God's Name
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82176 is a reply to message #82171 ] |
Sun, 01 June 2008 08:33 |
abunimir 
Messages: 62
Registered: March 2007
Location: Beit Sahour - Palestine |
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| sh wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 09:12 |
| abunimir wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 09:00 |
People must realize that Israel is NOT what it seems to be,, and it is not like the image the media paint for, and I feel that this is my duty.. because a great deal of the troubles that we have stem from wrong assumptions including that whatever Israel is doing against the Palestinians are actions of self defense.
I can not accept to justify Israel's denial of Entry to many people security fed by fear. This is not accurate.
Generally American citizens who hold American Passports are allowed to Israel through any terminal....
my brother in law, is denied entry ONLY because he is Palestinian-American.
So, how can that be described other than discrimination based on racial ethnic reasons.
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Because if you ask an Israeli who is not a racist (some are and some aren't) why he is suspicious of Palestinians, he will not say or feel or think it's because of their race, but will not be for opening all the doors either.
I accept that the way Israel paints itself for public consumption is not the way it really is, just as a person does not see himself as he really is. America is also not how it portrays itself, unfortunately.
But Israel is a country of its people and they are not all devils. That is why it is best to set aside conveniently sweeping rhetoric and examine with a microscope instead. If there are people on your side and people on our side who can trust each other things will change. But if I am included by you in a large sack called racism I will not recognize even myself let alone you. It's called demonization and it polarizes.
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Wait a minute,,
When I say Israel,, I am talking about the establishment,, the empire,, not the individuals,, I am not a person who stereotype people. This is not demonization... come on,, you can not deny the level of racism in Israel as an Entity,,,
So, I never say all Israelis are racists..
However, I do say that the system is,,, the fact that one is denied entry because they are Palestinians, without any "SECURITY" check, is labeling them as terrorists,,,
What doors you are talking about,, ?? you have to recognize that the Palestinian People have a history in this land,, a fresh one, fresh enough that living generations are still able to talk about something they have lived through,, and they are denied access to their history,,,, what do you call this?? Do you personally deny us this right??
George
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82177 is a reply to message #82173 ] |
Sun, 01 June 2008 08:47 |
abunimir
Messages: 62
Registered: March 2007
Location: Beit Sahour - Palestine |
Member |
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| tsedek wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 09:27 |
| abunimir wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 09:00 |
well,
Thanks for welcoming words
Finkelstein being a non-Palestinian does not mean that his case does not relate to me.
I guess you should investigate more about the hardships Finkeslstein and many others like him are facing because of their opinion regarding Israel.
People must realize that Israel is NOT what it seems to be,, and it is not like the image the media paint for, and I feel that this is my duty.. because a great deal of the troubles that we have stem from wrong assumptions including that whatever Israel is doing against the Palestinians are actions of self defense.
I can not accept to justify Israel's denial of Entry to many people security fed by fear. This is not accurate.
Generally American citizens who hold American Passports are allowed to Israel through any terminal....
my brother in law, is denied entry ONLY because he is Palestinian-American.
So, how can that be described other than discrimination based on racial ethnic reasons.
call it whatever you like,,
|
So you think the wrong image is the cause those hundreds of thousands of Palestinians aren't even allowed to travel abroad (and if so probably wouldn't be allowed to return)?
I think that by taking on the wrong issue you face chasing people objecting to the crime of emprisoning other people in a small territory against you in their harnass. They get swept into a rhetoric 'thing' that doesn't have anything to do anymore with the real issue. I'm surprised you don't notice that. When talking 'images' or making 'famous' people having different opinions into the 'representatives' of the core issue we're talking in circles because we miss the point.
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Yes,, but indirectly
Well, the cosmetic image that Israel has, covers up series of crimes which allows it to do more.
anyhow, I am not fan of any of the Arab regimes,,
besides, I do not claim that there is no racism,,,
However, Israel claims it is a democracy, and the US describe it as the ONLY democracy in the ME. I can not understand the democracy in a military occupation.
| Quote: |
And, one other thing: are people having different opinions against governments in the Arab countries allowed entrance? I gave you the example of Feiglin, I can give you the example of every Israeli not being allowed into the Arab countries.... That's not racism? No. It's politics. Just like with this person who finds himself so important that he would have others talk about HIM. If you want your brother to be able to come through the airport as every other human being you must talk about HIM. HE represents an injustice like there are so many. Give names to all those people, set THEM in the spotlight. Don't play willingly along with this political game of being drawn in endless discussion about someone that clearly enjoys from it because he can book it into his list of complaints. He is NOTHING.
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I can understands your frustration regarding Finkelstein,,because of his writings,,
However, there are similar frustrations about him among many others, because they describe him as someone who is angry because Israel manipulates the holocaust.. in other words, if Israel does not do that, he would be a friend of Israel.
Anyway, we are trying to highlight these issues in the news, this is what I do most of my time,,
we still need time to be heard, but we will be heard and the truth will be revealed to the world.
then, and only then, things can get better..
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82178 is a reply to message #82176 ] |
Sun, 01 June 2008 08:47 |
sh
Messages: 8918
Registered: December 2006
Location: Israel |
Member |
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| abunimir wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 10:33 |
| sh wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 09:12 |
| abunimir wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 09:00 |
People must realize that Israel is NOT what it seems to be,, and it is not like the image the media paint for, and I feel that this is my duty.. because a great deal of the troubles that we have stem from wrong assumptions including that whatever Israel is doing against the Palestinians are actions of self defense.
I can not accept to justify Israel's denial of Entry to many people security fed by fear. This is not accurate.
Generally American citizens who hold American Passports are allowed to Israel through any terminal....
my brother in law, is denied entry ONLY because he is Palestinian-American.
So, how can that be described other than discrimination based on racial ethnic reasons.
|
Because if you ask an Israeli who is not a racist (some are and some aren't) why he is suspicious of Palestinians, he will not say or feel or think it's because of their race, but will not be for opening all the doors either.
I accept that the way Israel paints itself for public consumption is not the way it really is, just as a person does not see himself as he really is. America is also not how it portrays itself, unfortunately.
But Israel is a country of its people and they are not all devils. That is why it is best to set aside conveniently sweeping rhetoric and examine with a microscope instead. If there are people on your side and people on our side who can trust each other things will change. But if I am included by you in a large sack called racism I will not recognize even myself let alone you. It's called demonization and it polarizes.
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Wait a minute,,
When I say Israel,, I am talking about the establishment,, the empire,, not the individuals,, I am not a person who stereotype people. This is not demonization... come on,, you can not deny the level of racism in Israel as an Entity,,,
So, I never say all Israelis are racists..
However, I do say that the system is,,, the fact that one is denied entry because they are Palestinians, without any "SECURITY" check, is labeling them as terrorists,,,
What doors you are talking about,, ?? you have to recognize that the Palestinian People have a history in this land,, a fresh one, fresh enough that living generations are still able to talk about something they have lived through,, and they are denied access to their history,,,, what do you call this?? Do you personally deny us this right??
George
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Abunimir, I recognize the Palestinians have a history in this land, a fresh one that has been marred by real tragedy. I can't see us working it through by attributing actions to the wrong motive. If things do not get better, they will get worse not only for you but also for the Israeli Jews who work with you to make things better, eventually even for the freedom to publish and read views like ours on a website like this. The whole story has been a slow kicking in of more and more unacceptable and repressive measures in the face of intractability and manipulation and plain wickedness. I'm sad to say both sides have their share in this and those who suffer most are surely the Palestinians, but not the ones with Swiss bank accounts. There is no time to lose, it is already terribly late. We should be talking about doing. What can we do, practically? Raising awareness when it's credible is the only way to influence the ballot box. In this you can play an enormous role and so can this forum. But you need to be precise.
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82179 is a reply to message #82177 ] |
Sun, 01 June 2008 08:56 |
sh
Messages: 8918
Registered: December 2006
Location: Israel |
Member |
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| abunimir wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 10:47 |
anyhow, I am not fan of any of the Arab regimes,,
besides, I do not claim that there is no racism,,,
However, Israel claims it is a democracy, and the US describe it as the ONLY democracy in the ME. I can not understand the democracy in a military occupation.
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Well, Israel has claimed many things and there is democracy only relatively speaking, as there is in the US and the UK. It is relative here because of legalistic manipulations like no fixed borders and the occupation. That's what needs to be highlighted and that is what will make sense not only to the rest of the "free world" but also to Israelis.
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82180 is a reply to message #82177 ] |
Sun, 01 June 2008 09:35 |
tsedek
Messages: 5184
Registered: May 2007
Location: Ramat-Gan |
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| abunimir wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 10:47 |
| tsedek wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 09:27 |
| abunimir wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 09:00 |
well,
Thanks for welcoming words
Finkelstein being a non-Palestinian does not mean that his case does not relate to me.
I guess you should investigate more about the hardships Finkeslstein and many others like him are facing because of their opinion regarding Israel.
People must realize that Israel is NOT what it seems to be,, and it is not like the image the media paint for, and I feel that this is my duty.. because a great deal of the troubles that we have stem from wrong assumptions including that whatever Israel is doing against the Palestinians are actions of self defense.
I can not accept to justify Israel's denial of Entry to many people security fed by fear. This is not accurate.
Generally American citizens who hold American Passports are allowed to Israel through any terminal....
my brother in law, is denied entry ONLY because he is Palestinian-American.
So, how can that be described other than discrimination based on racial ethnic reasons.
call it whatever you like,,
|
So you think the wrong image is the cause those hundreds of thousands of Palestinians aren't even allowed to travel abroad (and if so probably wouldn't be allowed to return)?
I think that by taking on the wrong issue you face chasing people objecting to the crime of emprisoning other people in a small territory against you in their harnass. They get swept into a rhetoric 'thing' that doesn't have anything to do anymore with the real issue. I'm surprised you don't notice that. When talking 'images' or making 'famous' people having different opinions into the 'representatives' of the core issue we're talking in circles because we miss the point.
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Yes,, but indirectly
Well, the cosmetic image that Israel has, covers up series of crimes which allows it to do more.
and as long as you approach the cosmetics without addressing the real issue you are part of the cover-up. plain and simple.
anyhow, I am not fan of any of the Arab regimes,,
besides, I do not claim that there is no racism,,,
However, Israel claims it is a democracy, and the US describe it as the ONLY democracy in the ME. I can not understand the democracy in a military occupation.
well nobody says it is the best democracy but it is a democracy - even democracies aren't prefect and there are people living much better under different kinds of regimes. however when you say democracy to 'the west' this is closest to their hearts because of their own view on other regimes that seem not fair to them - while failing to understand that from a different perspective one also has different ideals. (this was off topic  ) -
| Quote: |
And, one other thing: are people having different opinions against governments in the Arab countries allowed entrance? I gave you the example of Feiglin, I can give you the example of every Israeli not being allowed into the Arab countries.... That's not racism? No. It's politics. Just like with this person who finds himself so important that he would have others talk about HIM. If you want your brother to be able to come through the airport as every other human being you must talk about HIM. HE represents an injustice like there are so many. Give names to all those people, set THEM in the spotlight. Don't play willingly along with this political game of being drawn in endless discussion about someone that clearly enjoys from it because he can book it into his list of complaints. He is NOTHING.
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I can understands your frustration regarding Finkelstein,,because of his writings,,
I am not frustrated at Finkelstein personally, but the concept he represents of rich, academic 'know-it-alls' wanting to stand in the spotlight - and filling their bank accounts with fame over something others (like you and me) are suffering under. If he -and the ones like him- would REALLY be concerned, he would come live here and pay income tax and VOTE, just like every other person physically -and thus totally- having to live under the conditions here and accepting their own small role they can play - unless wanting to form a political party and get people vote for you. I hardly know what he writes about the Holocaust but if it is the capitalization on it like it has become an industry bearing profit - I even agree with him. To distort the past and what the jews have suffered I would not agree with.
However, there are similar frustrations about him among many others, because they describe him as someone who is angry because Israel manipulates the holocaust.. in other words, if Israel does not do that, he would be a friend of Israel.
Anyway, we are trying to highlight these issues in the news, this is what I do most of my time,,
we still need time to be heard, but we will be heard and the truth will be revealed to the world.
then, and only then, things can get better..
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Pity you highlight these issues in the news and not the real core issues and give "anonymous" who isn't lucky enough to have the right connections, a fat bank account and the level of self-importance like geeks as Finkelstein a name, a voice.....
It Is A Sin To Kill In God's Name
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82201 is a reply to message #82199 ] |
Sun, 01 June 2008 13:16 |
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I believe there are many issues at hand by which Israeli democracy can be challenged – or shaken. Finkelstein’s deportation is not one of them, indeed it has nothing to do with whether Israel is a democracy or not. That blanket statement that Israel is not the democracy it claims it is perhaps has a place in other contexts, but not in regard to this, or on this thread.
The mere fact that Finkelstein was consorting with Hezballah is reason enough for him to be made to leave. There is more than enough cooperation between Hamas and Hezballah to make Israel uncomfortable as it is. If Finkelstein really wanted to voice opinions and enter the West bank, he would have done well to leave Lebanon alone. Now it is too late.
There are other questions that can be asked and that truly point to a flaw in Israel’s democratic system of government: such as why a minority of people are dictating our policies in the West Bank regarding the annexation of land and building of settlements, why the members of Knesset are responsible to the parties and not to the people who voted for them, and why a PM who has shown irresponsibility nd is not flawless in his character is still in office.
If Finkelstein had not gone to Hezballah and was being escorted out of the country to keep him silent, you would have a case for raising the banner of freedom of speech. As it is, those who want to question Israel’s democracy will have to do it elsewhere.
Bracha
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82208 is a reply to message #82201 ] |
Sun, 01 June 2008 13:42 |
Tess 
Messages: 2075
Registered: January 2008 |
Member |
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Bracha,
Since I am the one who raised this issue, I will respond. First, I made a distinction of how Israel functions internally, and how it functions vis-a-vis the OCT.
In this case, Finkelstein was not visiting Israel. He was headed to Palestine. Israel has no right to bar people from entering Palestinian land through representative governance. Finklestein lost legitimacy because of positions, but as a researcher he actually should be able to have contact with Fundamentalist groups without impunity,like George Fawaz.
There isn't a way enter the WB openly without passing Israeli security. And, since Abunimer and myself have noted this is not an isolated incident, although more well known because of Finklestein's notoriety, to me it seems just another example of a greater issue.
Targeting academics for contact with radical groups without proof that they are operatives smacks of the Red hunts to me. So, in the same time frame Britain arrest a grad student doing a paper on radical Islam for down loading al-Qaeda materials. If you work in ME politics, you need to understand these groups, because without some radical systemic change, they are likely to be the new governments.
[Updated on: Sun, 01 June 2008 14:05]
Force is a physical power; I do not see how its effects could produce morality. -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82213 is a reply to message #82210 ] |
Sun, 01 June 2008 14:05 |
Tess 
Messages: 2075
Registered: January 2008 |
Member |
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| sh wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 15:54 |
The issue is not to confuse Finkelstein with Palestinians who are suffering this treatment. It is unjust vis-a-vis the Palestinians, not Finkelstein, whose books and lectures stand only to gain publicity from this. Whether it is illegal needs to be checked. If it is, it's that road that needs to be taken, internationally and sharpish.
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I don't believe this. Suppose I go there. I have some papers that are used in various U's to teach ME politics. So, if I go, and my husband and I and my children are prevented from seeing our family there, it is a bad thing for my husband and kids, but for me, who is American and may en-profit, it is a justice?
Force is a physical power; I do not see how its effects could produce morality. -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82216 is a reply to message #82208 ] |
Sun, 01 June 2008 14:11 |
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Tess, it's far more than just contact with radical groups and more than the Red hunts in which people were seeing imaginary demons. We are at war with Hezballah, Tess, and reluctance to let someone saunter back and forth is more than seeing shadows of demons on the wall. The equivalent would have been if the Communists in the McCarthy era had already fought an active war with the US and had weapons assembled on its borders.
In the end, Finkelstein will not be silenced, though: probably the opposite is true. But as long as Hezballah is involved no one has a case for saying that his views were definitely the cause for his eviction. Perhaps if he had not gone to Hezballah he would have been admitted to the West Bank. But as things stand now, neither of us has proof because there is the variable of Hezballah involved.
As far as I am concerned the sooner the Palestinians are given autonomy over their own territory and are responsible for who goes in and out the better.
Bracha
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82217 is a reply to message #82213 ] |
Sun, 01 June 2008 14:28 |
sh
Messages: 8918
Registered: December 2006
Location: Israel |
Member |
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| Tess wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 16:05 |
| sh wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 15:54 |
The issue is not to confuse Finkelstein with Palestinians who are suffering this treatment. It is unjust vis-a-vis the Palestinians, not Finkelstein, whose books and lectures stand only to gain publicity from this. Whether it is illegal needs to be checked. If it is, it's that road that needs to be taken, internationally and sharpish.
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I don't believe this. Suppose I go there. I have some papers that are used in various U's to teach ME politics. So, if I go, and my husband and I and my children are prevented from seeing our family there, it is a bad thing for my husband and kids, but for me, who is American and may en-profit, it is a justice?
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I believe his visit to Hezbollah - well, Nasrallah wasn't it? - is all the pretext they need. I didn't say it was justice I'm saying it was enough in his case to be considered a security risk. If I speak to Nasrallah I can be put in jail too. I remember the hounding of Avnery and Abie Nathan when they met Arafat. Legally it's a bit more iffy if you're an actual citizen than if you're not. Every country reserves the right to vet who enters it. Ask any non-American coming to your country what it's like getting through security there. It's unique, Tess.
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82218 is a reply to message #82216 ] |
Sun, 01 June 2008 14:34 |
Tess
Messages: 2075
Registered: January 2008 |
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| Bracha wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 16:11 |
Tess, it's far more than just contact with radical groups and more than the Red hunts in which people were seeing imaginary demons. We are at war with Hezballah, Tess, and reluctance to let someone saunter back and forth is more than seeing shadows of demons on the wall. The equivalent would have been if the Communists in the McCarthy era had already fought an active war with the US and had weapons assembled on its borders.
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Bracha,
Can I be the devil's advocate here, so to speak?
How better when a government is at war with a group to stop a message or delegitimize a message from a credentialed researcher that does not fit with your official line, than try to tag him an operative instead of an academic? That bothers me. It is happening here often.
I mean not just ME politics. But, there is quite a bit. I have posted from Juan Cole, who has suffered this because his position against the occupation and statements about MEMRI. They go after the credentials of Global Warming researchers, too. I see a trend, that bothers me.
Force is a physical power; I do not see how its effects could produce morality. -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82224 is a reply to message #82218 ] |
Sun, 01 June 2008 15:20 |
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Tess, what was Finkelstein "researching"? My inclination is that his visit to Hezballah had nothing to do with his research at all. Many other countries have been known to evict first and ask questions later over much less deterimental issues. And in this case, as I have said, I believe that there is too much real security risk kicking up dust in order to suffice with explaining it as silencing or delegitimizing a message. Remove the variable of the visit to Hezballah, and you have no guarantee that he still would have been thrown out.
I recently heard of an Israeli family who went to the American embassy in Tel Aviv to apply for visas to visit the States for a family event. Everyone was given visas - except for one of the teenage twins. Go figure.
Bracha
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82232 is a reply to message #82207 ] |
Sun, 01 June 2008 17:13 |
tsedek
Messages: 5184
Registered: May 2007
Location: Ramat-Gan |
Member |
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| abunimir wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 15:41 |
Tsedek,
I think you miss-understood me when I said "we are trying to highlight these issues in the news, maybe I was not clear enough.,
I am talking about highlighting things that people around the world including Israelis do not know about, although some thinks they know.
Please tell me what are the core issues in your opinion???
I do want to talk about core issues,, and talk about what can people in this forum do to make contribute to making things better.
george
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What is there to not know about Finkelstein? On the other hand does anybody knows about your brother (and someone else I know) being stopped and returned because he's Palestinian? Why aren't their names just as important as Finkelstein's to reach the news? Finkelstein wanted to visit friends, they (your brother and this person I know - and literally several hundreds of others I know of because of my work but can't talk about because of confidentiality matters) want to visit FAMILY in their homecountry, the country they hold a pasport for. Who is Finkelstein?? Why so many words about him? He -to me- is the counterbalance of Feiglin. Simple.
To get access to the names of people refused entry you have to contact human rights offices in (mostly) Ramallah as I think they are the ones working together with the lawyers for human rights organizations in Israel. They're almost all (as SH calls it) Red Tape "victims" but even when appealing not too many are granted in (and/or out) because they are 'anonymous'. Blow Finkelstein.
It Is A Sin To Kill In God's Name
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82238 is a reply to message #82224 ] |
Sun, 01 June 2008 20:17 |
Tess
Messages: 2075
Registered: January 2008 |
Member |
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| Bracha wrote on Sun, 01 June 2008 17:20 |
Tess, what was Finkelstein "researching"? My inclination is that his visit to Hezballah had nothing to do with his research at all. Many other countries have been known to evict first and ask questions later over much less deterimental issues. And in this case, as I have said, I believe that there is too much real security risk kicking up dust in order to suffice with explaining it as silencing or delegitimizing a message. Remove the variable of the visit to Hezballah, and you have no guarantee that he still would have been thrown out.
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I think on this we will have to agree to disagree. I find it hard to believe this rather monotone, fairly laid back professor would go to Hezbollah to become an operative.I don't know that he was researching, but you really just don't know, because you have to do preliminary research to even start a book. And, it may have been to get pictures for a book too, so you never know.
And, though I may agree with portions of Hizbollah's ideology, I would not mistake them for stupid. I find it even more far fetched that Hezbollah would be so unintelligent as to use such a high profile persona as an operative. Really, that means believing in Israeli benevolence to allow him to pass despite his bad mouthing Israel, which I don't think it a widely held concept in their institution.
But, will agree there is high stress there and that Israel has to right to limit whoever they want from entering their soil, just not Palestinian soil.
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I recently heard of an Israeli family who went to the American embassy in Tel Aviv to apply for visas to visit the States for a family event. Everyone was given visas - except for one of the teenage twins. Go figure.
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Just another example of why I am so worried about the state of this nation. We worry about who is in whose bed and not whether we treat people well, or if our government is rational and organized.
Force is a physical power; I do not see how its effects could produce morality. -Jean-Jacques Rousseau
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82265 is a reply to message #81674 ] |
Mon, 02 June 2008 06:08 |
tsedek
Messages: 5184
Registered: May 2007
Location: Ramat-Gan |
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You got me wrong Walid. I am not talking about what he writes and the holocaust and 1948. He is free to make his profits or fame from whatever he decides he can get most out of. What do I care? I simply don't read him. I also don't care discussions are going on about it. But I wasn't talking about that. I was talking about the discussions and the piersum (Moderator's note: publicity) he got out of being denied entrance into Israel. I don't think it is fair he reach the newspapers with this even while people not provocative but simply wanting to live their lives are denied to visit their families, their own flesh and blood - and most of those are also denied exit to travel to those family-members abroad that are being refused in. In this context can you see my objection to this hysterics about the denial of Finkelstein's entrance?
[Updated on: Mon, 02 June 2008 06:26] by Moderator
It Is A Sin To Kill In God's Name
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82409 is a reply to message #82398 ] |
Tue, 03 June 2008 10:03 |
sh
Messages: 8918
Registered: December 2006
Location: Israel |
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Attorney Oded Feller, who is a member of the Association for Civil Rights in Israel, has written an article on the deportation of Finkelstein, published on YNet today. Here is the part that rings alarm bells for freedom of speech inside Israel and that might take what happened with Finkelstein out of the security risk black hole in which it was filed :
In recent years we have been forced to get used to immediate expulsion of visitors of Arab descent, relatives of residents of the occupied territories, peace and human rights activists, and to abuse of foreign reporters. Now is the turn of those who “merely” annoy Israel. The permanent justification for this policy is that a “foreign person has no given right to enter,” or in other words, the Interior Ministry and the Shin Bet security service can decide who enters and who doesn’t, and they do not need to be accountable to anyone. Not even to Israeli citizens.
This procedure, which is undertaken quickly and discreetly, is a sign of a country under siege which fears that her citizens or those under its occupation will be exposed to other views, outside the consensus. Freedom of speech is not only about the right to express oneself, but also the right to be exposed to other views, even if they are outrageous and annoying.
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3550887,00.html
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| Re: Norman Finkelstein's Deportation [message #82457 is a reply to message #81674 ] |
Tue, 03 June 2008 19:19 |
tsedek
Messages: 5184
Registered: May 2007
Location: Ramat-Gan |
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I really can't read the whole article, Walid haven't got too much time lately. But if others are mentioned on their OWN merit (like not kidnapped in other so-called messages everybody wants to take a bite from) then it's good. Still wish Finkelstein would be kept out of it because he met the Hizb and mix up the matter for others who only want to visit their families.
It Is A Sin To Kill In God's Name
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